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  #201  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2019, 2:19 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Again, it was pointed out that on the very site that was used to create a counterargument had information posted that countered your argument. So, the source is fine when you cherrypick information to further your argument, but not fine when information is shown that doesn't agree with your argument.

And, again, semantics from one of those examples used are chosen to somehow "prove" the argument again.

Are you even paying attention?
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  #202  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2019, 2:46 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Looks to me like he presented some facts and you resorted to insults.
Eau Claire isn't a fan of facts or science. It's pretty clear from his posts. He has decided in advance what he believes in, and no amount of facts will change his quasi-religious beliefs.
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  #203  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2019, 2:54 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Eau Claire View Post
What that statement is saying is that if nothing changes and everything stays the same for the next 80 years, THEN polar bears could face starvation in the north. It's a ridiculous and completely meaningless statement.
Not at all; on the contrary, it's exactly what we mean when we say a species is threatened/endangered. What else can that mean? "Extinct"? Obviously not; the distinction is so easy to get that's even you should see it.

For another real life example - ash trees in my area are forecast to be all gone eventually. Yet someone as myopic as you would point out that the many ash trees I have on my properties are currently thriving (which they are), or that someone could semi-magically invent next year a bulletproof way to keep the Emerald Borer at bay.

Sure, maybe... but it doesn't mean we can't make forecasts based on current trajectories and realistic possibilities. You find those forecasts inconvenient, so you're resorting to fallacies to try to render them invalid. It's a lame tactic.
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  #204  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 12:22 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Glacier View Post
"By 2100, polar bears could face starvation and reproductive failure even in far northern Canada. "

We could also be abducted by aliens. A lot of things could happen, but not almost all "coulds" have a very low probability of happening. Polar bears survive the medieval warm period and many even warmer periods before that.
So, of all the stuff that I posted, you pick that particular copy/paste to point out.

Where is all the scientific data showing trends that will lead to alien abduction of all of us? How is that even an intelligent example to use?

Of all the polar bear info/links I had posted earlier, this one appears to speak loudly to the idea that we may have a problem here:
https://www.gov.mb.ca/sd/fish_and_wi...ars/index.html

Bear condition and productivity has declined steadily over the last decade. Fall weight of all age classes for both sexes declined, and a steady decline was seen in spring weight of adult females leaving the denning area with cubs. The reproductive rate of females also declined, as did the survival rate of cubs. Researchers from the Canadian Wildlife Service continue to investigate this trend and its possible causes.

Manitoba lists the polar bear as threatened under The Endangered Species and Ecosystems Act, and as protected under The Wildlife Act. Provincial staff participate on the Canadian Polar Bear Technical Committee and on the Advisory Committee which meet yearly to discuss polar bear management issues.


However, even when I post something like that, you guys sift through everything else I posted (which was basically a quick search and a number of copy/pastes... literally just took a few minutes to find), like you're panning for gold, to find some bit of text which you might use in your argument to prove everybody wrong who has concern over what appears to be happening...

You can choose to disregard the polar bear situation (which is just one example of many observed situations that I included in my particular post, and that Eau Claire chose to focus on), or all of the other observations/data that the scientific community is studying/finding, but what is the motivation?

Why are you guys choosing to shut your mind off to the possibility that there is something going on and we might need to pay attention to it?
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  #205  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 1:25 PM
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  #206  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 2:18 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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That's a great summary of how stupid the plastics ban and it's supporters are, although it has little to do with climate change. Other than the fact it will make the problem a little worse.
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  #207  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 2:49 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Interesting perspective, and shows how poorly thought out that some of these across-the-board bans can be. IMHO it's mostly about politics and attempting to look good to those not paying attention completely.

While this is not strictly about climate change, but on-topic for plastic bans, there was a discussion in the Halifax section in January, regarding the plan by Halifax city councillors to ban single use plastics in the city.

If interested, the discussion starts about one third of the way down on page 2:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...=237233&page=2

There are links to some research that has been done which, IMHO, shows that an all-out plastic bag ban is not necessarily the direction that we should be headed in... not that we don't need to re-think the situation, because I believe we do... but it appears politicians are not really thinking about it, just acting in a knee-jerk fashion because it's popular at the moment.
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  #208  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 10:46 PM
Glacier Glacier is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
So, of all the stuff that I posted, you pick that particular copy/paste to point out.

Where is all the scientific data showing trends that will lead to alien abduction of all of us? How is that even an intelligent example to use?

Of all the polar bear info/links I had posted earlier, this one appears to speak loudly to the idea that we may have a problem here:
https://www.gov.mb.ca/sd/fish_and_wi...ars/index.html
"We couldn't find the web page / Nous ne pouvons trouver cette page web
Error 404/ Erreur 404"

Yup, speaking louder than words...

IF you didn't want someone to pick out something you posted, why did you post it?

Speaking of "the scientific data showing trends", show me the trends. You need to actually post data, facts, science, graphs, trends to prove your case. Saying something "could happen" 80 years in the future is only slightly less idiotic than saying we could be abducted by aliens in 2100.

If you don't back up your claims with trending data, you are anti-science and anti-fact based reasoning.
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  #209  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 5:39 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Glacier View Post
"We couldn't find the web page / Nous ne pouvons trouver cette page web
Error 404/ Erreur 404"

Yup, speaking louder than words...

IF you didn't want someone to pick out something you posted, why did you post it?

Speaking of "the scientific data showing trends", show me the trends. You need to actually post data, facts, science, graphs, trends to prove your case. Saying something "could happen" 80 years in the future is only slightly less idiotic than saying we could be abducted by aliens in 2100.

If you don't back up your claims with trending data, you are anti-science and anti-fact based reasoning.
Oops... my bad. I copy/pasted the link incorrectly. This one should work.

https://www.gov.mb.ca/sd/fish_and_wi...ars/index.html
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  #210  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 2:31 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Glacier View Post
Speaking of "the scientific data showing trends", show me the trends. You need to actually post data, facts, science, graphs, trends to prove your case. Saying something "could happen" 80 years in the future is only slightly less idiotic than saying we could be abducted by aliens in 2100.

If you don't back up your claims with trending data, you are anti-science and anti-fact based reasoning.
Again, that was not my assertion, it was a quote copied off the very page that your friend used to dispute my opinions. I was merely questioning why he/she would choose to use certain information from that website that agreed with their point, but chose to ignore the information (the 'could happen' quote) that didn't agree with their point. It's not a solid way to build an argument IMHO.

And FWIW, in none of this have I been trying to build a case or prove a point. All I said is that there is too much information out there that says 'something' is happening to ignore. The science community has been doing all the hard slugging to come up with data to show something is happening, and they are the ones trying to get the word out, to overcome the inertia of politics/society to effect change. Those are the people I pay attention to, not the media, or random people on an internet messageboard.

IMHO, it's up to the people who keep insisting that nothing is going on to prove it to us by fact/data. If you want folks to think that climate change, or some other environmental catastrophe is not happening or about to happen, then prove it to us and we'll all be able to sleep soundly at night. However, I have not seen one argument from the naysayers yet that has been able to do this.
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  #211  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 5:37 PM
Glacier Glacier is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Again, that was not my assertion, it was a quote copied off the very page that your friend used to dispute my opinions. I was merely questioning why he/she would choose to use certain information from that website that agreed with their point, but chose to ignore the information (the 'could happen' quote) that didn't agree with their point. It's not a solid way to build an argument IMHO.

And FWIW, in none of this have I been trying to build a case or prove a point. All I said is that there is too much information out there that says 'something' is happening to ignore. The science community has been doing all the hard slugging to come up with data to show something is happening, and they are the ones trying to get the word out, to overcome the inertia of politics/society to effect change. Those are the people I pay attention to, not the media, or random people on an internet messageboard.

IMHO, it's up to the people who keep insisting that nothing is going on to prove it to us by fact/data. If you want folks to think that climate change, or some other environmental catastrophe is not happening or about to happen, then prove it to us and we'll all be able to sleep soundly at night. However, I have not seen one argument from the naysayers yet that has been able to do this.
I agree. There's definitely some things happening, I just wish people would be accurate about what exactly is changing.

Here is one for where I live. September keeps getting hotter and hotter every year while May has been getting cooler slightly. We are now to the point were Spring holds on a little later, but Summer extends much longer.

There are many trends we can see. Overall warmer temperatures (namely at night), much less cold in the winter months, more precipitation, etc. These are facts we can observe with data.

Next, we analyze what this means. It's far more complex than the "deniers" or "alarmists" portray it to be.

A longer summer means no frost in September, so longer growing season with more crops. I grow things now that people weren't growing 20 years ago.

The downside is that some plants and animals get pushed out of that zone because they need a colder climate. This could happen to the polar bears too, but animals are incredibly resilient at adapting to changing climates. There are currently 10 times more polar bears than 60 years ago because hunting has a much greater impact on numbers than climate change. We might have to cut hunting in the future to adapt to climate change, but the bears will survive and continue to thrive.

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  #212  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 7:56 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Well said. I think actually our lines of thought are not all that different.

Anecdotally, on the east coast we have observed a similar shift in the seasons - cooler, longer springs, and warmer, later autumns.

We east-coasters are keeping our eye on the potential for ocean warming to allow formation of tropical storms (including hurricanes) of greater intensity due to rising ocean temperatures.

Here is a good website link that explains what is happening:
https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warmin...te-change.html

Essentially they are saying that the world's oceans are absorbing much of the excess heat energy and that the phenomenon is more pronounced in the North Atlantic. The rising ocean temperatures allow storms to become more intense, causing greater damage when they make landfall. To further complicate this, the increases in population in coastal cities are increasing the financial cost of the hurricanes. As well, storm surge is exacerbated by (slightly) rising ocean levels. Although the frequency of storms is not expected to increase, the intensity is, which when combined with the other factors, increases their effects on our society. It's not simplistic in the least, and then to correctly interpret the data you also have to consider the variability of storm activity from year to year and the fact that technology to collect the amount of data needed was not available a hundred years ago - which meant that they had to use computer modeling to help interpret what data they did have from long ago.

Very complicated, not easy to explain, and enough 'gray area' and lack of understanding by the masses to allow the extremists on either side to sow doubt and slant the argument in their direction.

As an aside, one of the factors that struck me about the polar bear situation is that ice has a threshold for existence: 0°C. So, hypothetically, if the average polar temperature started at -100°C and steadily rose 0.1°C per year, there could be a 1000 year period where, to the casual observer, nothing has changed. Then, once the 'change of state' threshold is reached, it could disappear (hypothetically) very quickly. The casual observer would likely not understand that this isn't something that just happened... it was happening for centuries. Now if the trend was for the amount of temperature increase to likewise increase, it could happen even more quickly.

So therefore, if ocean temperatures continue to rise, it is easily believable that the threshold of ice existing year-round at the poles could be unsustainable, perhaps with ice building up over the winter months but completely melting in the summer months. I'm not sure if any of us truly understand what effect that would have on the polar bear population, nor all the other species who have adapted to living in ice conditions over several thousands of years. The bears are just one species, but each species affects other species, and so on.

In a sense we decide, based on the needs of human society, which extinctions we can live with and when we can't. Would we be affected negatively if polar bears disappeared from the earth (that's 'if'... I want to be clear)? Maybe not, as we don't appear to depend on their survival for our food supply or some other environmental benefit, but it's still a loss (at the very least, from a scientific or ecological point of view).

Looking at it in a different light, if humans disappeared from the planet for whatever reason, the planet would continue to survive - things would change, some life forms would adapt, some would thrive, some might not do as well. From the viewpoint of other species, many wouldn't be affected negatively, and many more would possibly thrive without human activity affecting their living situation.

It's a strange philosophical viewpoint, for sure, but it illustrates that it's all about perspective - people care about stuff that affects people... other stuff, not so much. And so it goes on...

(Sorry for the ramble... just adding my 2¢.)
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  #213  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 8:02 PM
Hackslack Hackslack is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
That's a great summary of how stupid the plastics ban and it's supporters are, although it has little to do with climate change. Other than the fact it will make the problem a little worse.
Trudeau is an absolute idiot with absolutely idiotic ideologies. Research, science, subject matter expertise on various subjects do not register with him. Anybody who present argument against his ideologies, Trudeau calls them divisive. Absolutely moronic Trudeau is.
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  #214  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
That's a great summary of how stupid the plastics ban and it's supporters are, although it has little to do with climate change. Other than the fact it will make the problem a little worse.
What's wrong the plastics ban? We waste so much plastic it seems like a great idea to me.
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  #215  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 9:19 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by flar View Post
What's wrong the plastics ban? We waste so much plastic it seems like a great idea to me.
IMHO, plastic is a good resource and can be a very useful material, but we just have to be more responsible as a society as to how we use it and what we do with it when we are finished using it.

Banning something because it's a popular idea without fully investigating all impacts seems to be somewhat misguided. But it could get votes...
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  #216  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 9:32 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
IMHO, plastic is a good resource and can be a very useful material, but we just have to be more responsible as a society as to how we use it and what we do with it when we are finished using it.

Banning something because it's a popular idea without fully investigating all impacts seems to be somewhat misguided. But it could get votes...
It gets my vote.

We'll adapt and plastic will still be used for many things. There's simply no need for us to be using 30+ million plastic bags every day, and all the useless packaging. That's just stupid and it won't change unless it's legislated.
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  #217  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 10:08 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by flar View Post
It gets my vote.

We'll adapt and plastic will still be used for many things. There's simply no need for us to be using 30+ million plastic bags every day, and all the useless packaging. That's just stupid and it won't change unless it's legislated.
Fair enough, but you want to make sure that the alternatives are actually improvements, or you're just trading one problem for another. Which is why I'd prefer to see more careful research and fact-based decision making.

If due diligence is done, and that results in a plastic ban and replacements with alternatives that are significantly better for our environment, then that's the way to go. If not, then we need to keep trying.

A few examples of why I worry that the accepted alternatives are not good enough...

https://stanfordmag.org/contents/pap...ic-or-reusable

Quote:
According to the previously cited U.K. study, it takes three reuses of a paper bag to neutralize its environmental impact, relative to plastic. A bag’s impact is more than just its associated carbon emissions: Manufacturing a paper bag requires about four times as much water as a plastic bag. Additionally, the fertilizers and other chemicals used in tree farming and paper manufacturing contribute to acid rain and eutrophication of waterways at higher rates.
Quote:
As mentioned in our essential answer, above, an average cotton shopping bag would need to be reused 131 times to account for its higher impact on the production side.
Quote:
Nonwoven PP, on the other hand, is less costly than cotton. These bags need to be reused only 11 times to break even with the conventional plastic (according to the same U.K. study).
With such qualifiers, will they be used as required in order to be an improvement over current plastic?

Also, Quebec did an interesting study of the issue in 2017, which can be found here: https://monsacintelligent.ca/wp-cont...ull-Report.pdf
It's an interesting read.

In the Maritimes, Sobeys stores have already worked to improve the situation on their own, by bringing out bags that use 30% less plastic and also providing a convenient method to recycle locally:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/princ...bags-1.4566891
Quote:
Stores also have bins where customers are encouraged to recycle their bags. Those will be sent back to the bag manufacturer, Inteplast, in New Brunswick to make new bags and other plastic products.

Sobeys said this will take some pressure off waste managers, who have been struggling to find markets for this plastic waste.
It just seems that there are so many more intelligent solutions out there that may work better than an all-out ban, but which haven't been examined yet.

Just my 2¢...
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  #218  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 10:16 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by flar View Post
What's wrong the plastics ban? We waste so much plastic it seems like a great idea to me.
Seems like a great idea, but doesn't solve any problems and in fact will make the problem of solving climate change worse. We use plastic because it is incredibly useful, and for things like packaging vegetables it massively reduces waste.

And what are the alternatives going to be? People are still going to use disposable straws and plates and such, but now they will be made of something else other than plastic, something that takes more energy to produce, created more CO2 in production and will still go in the landfill. Even though those plastics were never going to go into the ocean anyway.

Woke virtue signalling? Absolutely. Effective policy? Absolutely not. But it's easier than actually solving the real problems.
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  #219  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 10:17 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by flar View Post
It gets my vote.

We'll adapt and plastic will still be used for many things. There's simply no need for us to be using 30+ million plastic bags every day, and all the useless packaging. That's just stupid and it won't change unless it's legislated.
You are aware the alternatives are worse, right? You are voting for more damage to the environment.
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  #220  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 10:58 PM
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How about not having so many disposable products? Build things that are meant to last. We can live without so much of the stuff around us, we don't need to replace every thing made of plastic. I would hope that most plastic things are replaced with nothing.

Ban plastic water bottles, ban plastic bags. Two examples of things we don't actually need.

Nothing will change though, because people will make up endless excuses about why we can't do this and that, and fearmonger about alternatives.
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