Rail services in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Why the hell are they storing trains at Central Station?

Tracks 4-6 never had platforms so they aren’t good for much other than storage. I’m not sure what they were originally used for but during the Turbo train days they were used as maintenance bays for them.

Tracks 7&8 have a platform, but access to it was covered to make retail space, so similarly they aren’t useful for anything more than storage.

[Truenorth00]

@roger1818

You were asking where the $91 million figure came from. It came from the Globe and Mail article previously posted. Specifically this paragraph.

Another revelation contained in the documents is a breakdown of the projected cost of the project. Via has previously said it would cost about $4-billion – $6-billion if it was built to allow trains to operate on electric power. The documents say Via’s latest estimates peg the cost at $4.4-billion: $2.1-billion for the Toronto-to-Ottawa route, $91.5-million for the Ottawa-to-Montreal route, $1.14-billion for the Montreal-to-Quebec City route and $1.1-billion for additional train sets.

Source: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...for-extending/

So again, I'm wondering why they didn't just spend that $91.5M on trackwork now?

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So again, I'm wondering why they didn't just spend that $91.5M on trackwork now?

Probably sidings required for additional service; and those pieces will not be used without additional service.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by rbt

Probably sidings required for additional service; and those pieces will not be used without additional service.

They could easily do the trackwork and increase frequencies on just the Ottawa-Montreal route. Nothing says they need the full HFR to do that. It's 200 km and little over 1.5 hrs. They could have 2-3 small trainsets going back and forth, offering over a dozen departures a day (each direction) right now. That would have been a solid demonstration of HFR, for very little cost.

[acottawa]

$91M seems ridiculously low for any sort of infrastructure project, let alone a rail project. They are predicting an almost 30 minute improvement in Ottawa Montreal travel times. If they can really do that for 90M then I agree with Truenorth that the money should have been spent already, but the estimate seems unbelievably low.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

$91M seems ridiculously low for any sort of infrastructure project, let alone a rail project. They are predicting an almost 30 minute improvement in Ottawa Montreal travel times. If they can really do that for 90M then I agree with Truenorth that the money should have been spent already, but the estimate seems unbelievably low.

Their fastest scheduled service in the past has been 1:35 as per Urban_Sky's look at past schedules. So it's entirely possible that just adding some passing tracks, fixing some crossings, etc could get the speed they want. HFR is only scheduling for 1:33. The money is being spent mostly to reduce congestion, not improve geometry.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You were asking where the $91 million figure came from. It came from the Globe and Mail article previously posted. Specifically this paragraph.

Source: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...for-extending/

Thanks. It is nice to hear things from a reliable source (or at least as reliable as our media can be ).

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So again, I'm wondering why they didn't just spend that $91.5M on trackwork now?

I don't work for VIA so I would have no way of knowing, but there are several possible reasons.

One possible reason is that VIA is afraid that the government would see the $91.5-million as good enough to look like they are helping VIA in the public's eye without having to spend the full $4.4-billion. It is really hard to say for sure.

Don't forget that VIA initially asked for the new fleet as part of the HFR project. This was probably done to try and expedite the funding of HFR, but the government decided to split it into two requests, since the fleet was urgent and needed even without HFR.

It is also possible that VIA didn't expect that it would take this long to get approval and thus didn't see the point of splitting the project up into smaller chunks.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Their fastest scheduled service in the past has been 1:35 as per Urban_Sky's look at past schedules. So it's entirely possible that just adding some passing tracks, fixing some crossings, etc could get the speed they want. HFR is only scheduling for 1:33. The money is being spent mostly to reduce congestion, not improve geometry.

I agree that most of the gains will likely come from reducing congestion, not by improving geometry. The question is how are they planning on reducing congestion? Knowing that could help explain why they aren't doing it right away. Maybe it is somehow conditional on VIA reducing the number of trains on CN's ROW.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Their fastest scheduled service in the past has been 1:35 as per Urban_Sky's look at past schedules. So it's entirely possible that just adding some passing tracks, fixing some crossings, etc could get the speed they want. HFR is only scheduling for 1:33. The money is being spent mostly to reduce congestion, not improve geometry.

Then I agree with you it is ridiculous they have a plan for an almost 25% improvement in time for basically a rounding error in any infrastructure project and have not used it.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I would argue it's more than just symbolism. Having proper intercity rail as part of a public transport ecosystem is what enables car free living. If you've got to drive to Toronto every week from Ottawa, you'll have a car. Even if you don't use it much the rest of the time. As transit development picks up in Toronto (GO RER), Ottawa (O-Train Stage 2) and Montreal (REM), we're reaching the point that a good bit of business and personal travel can be done without a car. Just need the intercity piece.

This is an excellent point that I concede I did not give enough credit to. Public transport is far more effective as part of a network, and HFR makes the Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto rapid transit systems (and everywhere else on the route) more beneficial, just as those systems make HFR more beneficial. Their sum is worth more than their parts.

And, as you say, that interconnectedness makes the possibility of living without a car much more attractive, and having someone not own a car is a big win for everyone - especially other car drivers.

[milomilo]

Question - does VIA even have $91M to spend? I assume they are not swimming in cash so they would have to beg the federal government for that money.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Question - does VIA even have $91M to spend? I assume they are not swimming in cash so they would have to beg the federal government for that money.

Operating subsidies (i.e. the shortfall between revenues and operating costs) are paid as “operating funding” by the federal government (which reserves the right to force VIA to cut its budget whenever it feels like it receives too low value for the subsidies it pays).

Conversely, VIA submits a list of capital expenditure projects (i.e. investments in new or refurbished rolling stock, infrastructure, stations, buildings or other facilities) every year ahead of the federal budget, out of which the cabinet and its bureaucrats select and the Transport Committee of the federal parliament approves the lucky winners which will receive the “capital funding” they require. I don’t think that that list is publicly accessible, but you could file an access-to-information request and ask if you can see what capital expenditure projects have been submitted for capital funding...

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Question - does VIA even have $91M to spend? I assume they are not swimming in cash so they would have to beg the federal government for that money.

I would say not. According to VIA's Summary of the 2019-2023 Corporate Plan

Capital Funding
Budget 2017 provides VIA Rail $424 million for FY 2017-2018 through 2019-2020. This funding is only sufficient to keep VIA Rail’s assets in a state of good repair, not for any major replacement or acquisition program, whether of equipment or infrastructure. Beyond April 2020, capital requirements are unfunded.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Question - does VIA even have $91M to spend? I assume they are not swimming in cash so they would have to beg the federal government for that money.

Government agencies don't keep capital lying around. But they're is a budget planning process and they could and should have staffed an independent project on this segment by now. It's a project that would be eminently defensible and great value

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Question - does VIA even have $91M to spend? I assume they are not swimming in cash so they would have to beg the federal government for that money.

No, but the feds seem to have large amounts of money designated for infrastructure. $91 million would be a minuscule portion of that.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Government agencies don't keep capital lying around. But they're is a budget planning process and they could and should have staffed an independent project on this segment by now. It's a project that would be eminently defensible and great value

While I agree they could have, I am not so convinced they should have. It doesn't take much imagination to realize that proposing multiple small projects would cost more than proposing one large project.

Originally Posted by acottawa

No, but the feds seem to have large amounts of money designated for infrastructure. $91 million would be a minuscule portion of that.

Just because is is a minuscule portion of the money designated for infrastructure doesn't mean the government wouldn't require a significant amount of due diligence to ensure they are getting value for money. I have worked on government contracts and the cost of the paperwork for approval of small tasks can be significantly more than the cost of the cost of the task itself.

[CityTech]

Greyhound has reportedly vacated its Ottawa terminal today; some are speculating it could be them preparing for a permanent withdrawal from the Ontario market.

This would have a positive impact on the HFR business case and add new urgency to it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Greyhound has reportedly vacated its Ottawa terminal today; some are speculating it could be them preparing for a permanent withdrawal from the Ontario market.

This would have a positive impact on the HFR business case and add new urgency to it.

If HFR gets approved, I hope VIA just goes ahead and builds a bus terminal at Tremblay. It's ridiculous to have a bus depot not located on a major transit line or at a hub.

Tremblay would make a great intermodal hub. Allowing regional buses to feed HFR and vice versa, along with easy transit access. Plenty of parking and easy highway access too.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Greyhound has reportedly vacated its Ottawa terminal today; some are speculating it could be them preparing for a permanent withdrawal from the Ontario market.

This would have a positive impact on the HFR business case and add new urgency to it.

Interesting. According to this CTV News article:

In a statement to CTV News Ottawa, Greyhound Canada says it will no longer operate from the Ottawa Central Station when bus service resumes during the COVID-19 pandemic. The company is now looking for a future location to meet the needs of customers in the capital.

"Ottawa will continue to be a vital part of our network," said Greyhound.

"As we work through the impact of the pandemic on our business, we will communicate well in advance of our new location prior to a start-up date."

I wonder if they could be planning on moving to the VIA Rail station. Another good option would be near Hurdman.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I wonder if they could be planning on moving to the VIA Rail station. Another good option would be near Hurdman.

Tremblay or bust!

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Exactly. The only service that runs north of the river (though on different track than planned for HFR) are the Northern Quebec trains (which run 3 days a week), and they run around Mount Royal. Here a map of the existing services (plus a rough guess for HFR to Quebec City). There is a small chance HFR could run north of Mount Royal, but that isn't without its own issues.

My dream is to resurrect the eastern route. A few people have suggested that they should widen the Mount Royal tunnel to add an extra track, but if they're going to go through the cost and huge disruption of doing that which I suspect would be as large as building a whole new tunnel, I think a new tunnel would actually be better. I propose adding back track to the whole eastern corridor and running a tunnel (slightly shorter than the Mount Royal tunnel) to allow through routing of trains. This would reduce the HFR route length by about 12 km which may not be a huge percentage of the total trip but is still greater than the whole length of St. Laurent Blvd for comparison. it would also allow the Mascouche Line to share the route with service to two branches say, every 1/2 hr allowing a train to serve the central corridor every 15 minutes leaving plenty of capacity for HFR to run every 1/2 hr as well. The commuter rail would use smaller rolling stock than current, probablly about 6 car EMUs matching the train length of the new underground platform, and there would need to be some grade separations but an overall improvement. There there would probably even be some extra peak capacity for a couple additional trips if needed.



The part of north Montreal that would lose the Mascouche line service should get an REM branch running as far as perhaps the gare Anjou area (but not in that actual spot) and each of the four branches would get 8tph to downtown peak and 6tph off peak. There would also be a booster line running from the eastern branch out to Roxboro at an additional 6-8 tph. This would facilitate crosstown trips and allow for transfers to the Orange line at Sauvé.