What are the main differences between Buffalo and Rochester, NY?

[Maldive]

Originally Posted by benp

The old structures of Bethlehem Steel are mostly gone now, and much of the old site is now vacant or dedicated to smaller manufacturing operations, wind farms and solar farms. Most of the heavy industry in the city has been cleaned up or replaced with less dirty manufacturing, and more significantly a waterfront parks system stretching from downtown to Lackawanna. A trip south on the Skyway is unrecognizable from 20 or 30 years ago.

Thx for the update Ben (any pics?). Don't know the city's economic plan for growth/survival but will always be a (cross-border) fanboy of the city.

"Talking Proud", Irv Weinstein Channel 7, and the wealthy heiress who took my baby brother's virginity (good party, especially for my brother).

[benp]

Originally Posted by Maldive

Thx for the update Ben (any pics?). Don't know the city's economic plan for growth/survival but will always be a (cross-border) fanboy of the city.

"Talking Proud", Irv Weinstein Channel 7, and the wealthy heiress who took my baby brother's virginity (good party, especially for my brother).

Here is a street view from Woodlawn Beach looking toward the former Bethlehem plant, now the windmills of "Steel Winds" that first came online in 2007 and was expanded in 2012.
https://goo.gl/maps/kAMyMppFfDzRVT6W6

Marina at the new Buffalo Harbor State Park, opened in 2017, formerly old industrial and vacant land for decades, on Outer Harbor:
https://goo.gl/maps/BfmnSHv5QrWdKjk36

View from Wilkeson Point on the Outer Harbor, opened in 2016, with Times Beach toward downtown. More former industrial and vacant land. New bike trails and park also opened this year. This area is accessible by water taxi from Canalside, or via a redeveloped Ohio Street and Fuhrman Boulevard, completed about 3 years ago.
https://goo.gl/maps/ao21nWYtvmuGoTND9

Skyway view of Outer Harbor - not a great image, but leaving downtown headed south offers gorgeous vistas of the lakeshore and hills in the background. As a kid the view was all industrial, filled with smoke and flames (and it stunk) - this is the part that can be really eye-opening for anyone who hasn't been here in 20 years.
https://goo.gl/maps/XkR5z63Cb1PA2Ux4A

Still a few old structures from Bethlehem, but most of the remaining buildings have found new uses. The buildings that held the old furnaces and production areas are long gone (see across the street in this image, for example).
https://goo.gl/maps/rA8MTfjPjcnYhJzAA

[Maldive]

Belated thanks benP for the links. Appreciate the effort.

May be wrong but Buffalo seems to refuse quitting, doing a lot without much in the bank.

I'm no economist but I figure there's no Amazon type homerun in the offing.

So how does the town re-invent itself economically to fuel the change/comeback?

Fan of course.

[softee]

This article appeared in The Buffalo News a few days ago:

https://buffalonews.com/2019/07/19/t...n-for-buffalo/

Toronto's astonishing growth: Will it matter to Buffalo?

I don’t think most Americans understand the scale of what’s going on in Toronto,” said Frank Clayton, a senior research fellow at Ryerson University.

TORONTO – The city announces itself through traffic long before the heightened skyline glints into view, an early hint to northbound drivers that they’re approaching one of the fastest-growing cities in North America.

Construction cranes cast jagged shadows over Queen Elizabeth Way. New downtown condos loom 60 stories high, reflecting an ocean of teals, jades and blues. North of the city, once-sleepy, Presbyterian suburbs bulge and grow, sprouting Chinese shopping malls and Afghan supermarkets.

“I don’t think most Americans understand the scale of what’s going on in Toronto,” said Frank Clayton, a senior research fellow at Ryerson University who in May calculated Toronto’s population growth eclipsed that of every other U.S. and Canadian city. Even less is understood about how that growth, past and future, affects Western New York – a region that has long courted Canadian investors and tourists...

[dc_denizen]

It sometimes seem to me that some of our neighborly Ontarian forumers collectively last visited the USA (outside of New York and Florida) 25 years ago and failed to update their preconceptions over the following two decades to any degree

[JManc]

I don't see how Toronto's growth could spill over into Western NY. Unless it was some sporadic investment here and there. Do Canadians even go into NY to buy beer and cigarettes like they used to?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by JManc

I don't see how Toronto's growth could spill over into Western NY. Unless it was some sporadic investment here and there. Do Canadians even go into NY to buy beer and cigarettes like they used to?

I don't get it either. Toronto's growth is entirely due to Canadian immigration laws. Why would that affect Buffalo?

[benp]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't get it either. Toronto's growth is entirely due to Canadian immigration laws. Why would that affect Buffalo?

If you read the article that's basically the conclusion. Any effect from Toronto growth will be primarily in tourism, shopping, and cheaper flights from Buffalo airport - and that is more dependent on the dollar exchange rate than actual Toronto population growth. Canadian dollars spent in Buffalo is already a significant part of the local economy. There are plenty of Ontario license plates at the airport and mall parking lots. Nearly half a million Canadians live much closer to Buffalo than Toronto.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by Docere

Interesting question.

Buffalo is perceived as the more blue collar city and Rochester the more white collar city. City proper demographics are quite similar in terms of Black population and share of college grads. But Rochester suburbs/metro more white collar over all. Trump did better in Erie County than Monroe County.

Buffalo has a sort of mini-Cleveland thing going on, has the feel of a big city that has seen better days, good cultural amenities, white ethnic population evenly split between Italian and Eastern European etc.

Rochester is more "Northeastern." Italian Americans are the most visible white ethnic group, in line with Upstate NY generally.

Buffalo was (not perceived ) a blue collar, with steel mills, heavy industry, like the other great lake cities of Cleveland, etc. Rochester was the birthplace of photography and had Kodak and Xerox. Although they had factories, they were known as white collar/tech companies and were tech dominant in their day, which benefited the Rochester institutions like the university and museums. Kodak actually invented the digital camera, but did not market it out of concern it would cannibalize their photo printing.

I can see the cities stabilizing but it will be hard to start booming again given their location (upper NY with its high taxes and rough winters). I think their heydays have passed but i think they can still turn remain viable areas. I remember working in Rochester in the summer of senior year with a few graduates. One graduate had to choose a tech job between Buffalo and Austin, TX; she chose Buffalo - this was 1983. I don't think Austin even had a million people then.

[Maldive]

A number of years ago Buffalo's PBS affiliate did this ^. Grabbing a few under-valued Canuck dollar donations? Or some vague/visionary notion of a longer term partnership ;-)

There's a strange, unofficial brother/sisterhood between the cities (the Niagara region grew up on Buffalo news)... not sure how it can ultimately impact Buffalo's bottom line.

At least we get along (except Leafs/Sabre games).

There are probably tons of cross-border ideas/benefits out there (beyond my pay grade - and apparently beyond civic decision-makers in both cities).

The border barriers are growing of course and tourism won't sustain Buffalo... the city needs real business partnerships/investment. Canadian developers built half of the condo boom in San Diego (and a few NYC mega projects). Buffalo is closer than S. California. Not sure what the business case is but... friendly ears for sure.

P.S. these are post-Trump musings of course.

[dc_denizen]

Buffalo should reform its money laundering, securities and overseas investment laws. No scrutiny of foreign capital inflows. buffalo citizenship guaranteed for investors bringing in more than 500k. Sell the waterfront to concord pacific. Voila, buffalo looks like Vancouver in 20 years!

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Maldive

Erie's PBS station did this with London, ON... I think these acknowledgements of Canadian partner cities have to do with NY and PA state funding (lack of) public television. Canadian dollar donations help keep the lights on.

[Maldive]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Buffalo should reform its money laundering, securities and overseas investment laws. No scrutiny of foreign capital inflows. buffalo citizenship guaranteed for investors bringing in more than 500k. Sell the waterfront to concord pacific. Voila, buffalo looks like Vancouver in 20 years!

I quite like satire, but didn't laugh sorry ;-) Mind you good satire can impact a conversation (even move it forward). This time, not so much.

[dc_denizen]

I’m just describing factually what drove Vancouvers economic boom. In fact, Vancouver looked a lot like buffalo allegedly does 30 years ago—one industry town (lumber), stagnant economy . Sale of the waterfront lands to Hong Kong was the start of tue condo boom. Buffalo could conceivably take similar steps.

[JvcNYC]

Just looking at this older discussion, what a difference a few years makes!

It seems development in Buffalo has really began to take off, particularly with Douglas Jamal in the picture. It seems the City and developers are finally taking advantage of the area's unique history and using it as the springboard for development, particularly in the Silo City. That's great to see. I don't know that any other city in NY State outside of NYC is seeing development like this?

[3rd&Brown]

As someone who went to college in NY's Southern Tier, though it was many years ago, I've been to Rochester, Syracuse, and Buffalo a good number of times.

I had a number of friends from Buffalo, so went home with them for miscellaneous weekends, etc. They were from all areas of the region, from wealthier suburbs like Williamsville and Amherst to more middle brow places like Orchard Park and Grand Island. I also had a number of friends from Buffalo City ranging from working class neighborhoods to Allentown.

To this day, these are some of my favorite people in my life. I think that says something.

To me, Buffalo feels more substantial than Rochester. It's history is evident. The architecture is stunning. The people are indeed proud of Buffalo, though until recently, I think there was a certainly lack of confidence about the city.

Rochester indeed has better, world class universities. It feels more consistently wealthy and middle class and it is my understanding the regional (public) schools are uniformly excellent. The city itself is less substantial than Buffalo but it is cleaner. I don't remember clearly, but it didn't feel as connected to the lake as Buffalo does, but I could be wrong.

To me, it felt as though Rochester had a bit of a headstart with regards to its future if only because of its educational institutions and the history of community investment of its former corporate giants.

Both are lovely in their own right.

Syracuse is a dump.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Syracuse is a dump.

Compared to Rochester or Buffalo, not really. It's much smaller and lacks the economic pull as the other two but between SU, SUNY Upstate and a few other stable employers, there's potential and it has turned a corner.

[Docere]

Rochester is the more white collar metro, but that difference plays out in the suburbs. Buffalo seems to have stronger urban bones.

[isaidso]

Sadly, I've never been to upstate NY despite living in Toronto for 20 years. I'd very much like to do an Olmsted tour in Buffalo. I know nothing about Rochester other than Kodak was based there?

[Wigs]

The people in Buffalo seem to be a bit nicer/welcoming than Rochester. Maybe it's the "no airs" (no illusions of grandeur) blue collar mentality vs. Rochester historically being more white collar (Kodak, Xerox, Bausch & Lomb were all based here, and one can't forget Wegmans!).

That isn't to say Rochesterians aren't friendly.
But Buffalonians are some of the nicest Americans around so

I like Rochester, they have pretty residential streets with nice landscaping, parks, the Genesee river falls right in the heart of the city, but Buffalo has a bit larger of a city feel and downtown/urban core doesn't feel separated (disjointed?) like Rochester.

Buffalo has a larger feel since the population topped out in 1950 at 580k people in a tiny 39 sq miles, and the Metro pop. peaked early in 1970. Also Buffalo has a (c. 1985) light rail line that functions like a subway, and of course major league sports.

Visit them both and see what you think