Southwest Rapid Transitway Stage 2 -- Improvement or Deterioration?

[njaohnt]

About 6 years ago, I explained that the SWRT Stage 2 should not be built, because the 2 minute time saving would not be enough to justify the cost.

Originally Posted by njaohnt

People keep arguing about whether a project should go through. However, you can just use math to figure this out.

..............

The southwest transitway will only save enough time to be worth $40 million dollars. The 161 takes 11 minutes, so there is no way that the transitway will save more than 2 minutes......

However, I was wrong. The SWRT2 actually adds 5 minutes to the total time (U of W to U of M from 34 minutes to 39 minutes). This is easy to see when riding 161, as it goes 60 km/h down Pembina, only stopping a couple of times. But on the transitway, it stops several times, and may only get up to 60 km/h before having to stop at the next station.

The frequency to U of M is reduced, there are currently 8 161s from 8 to 9 AM, and this will be reduced to 7 BLUEs to U of M.

Taking route 180 from downtown currently takes me 30 minutes. Taking the BLUE and the 690 will now take me 35 minutes due to the transfer time. Yes, the 690 will have 6 busses per hour compared to 4 on the 180, but I don't care, as I just leave when there's a 180 one coming, and time my downtown transfer. The 180 is reliable, usually a little early, and never arrives more than 5 minutes late. The whole spine-feeder idea is inferior to the current system.

Imagine if the $420 million was invested in a transit endowment at 6%. This could do one of the following forever with the interest:

• Reduce fares by 29%
• Increase frequency by 12.5% / Reduce time between buses by 20%
• Expand express service to actually save time

At this point, WT should forget the spine/feeder routes, and simply place the old express routes on the transitway, cancel most transitway stops for the BLUE line during rush hour, and increase stop speed limits from 30 to 60 to allow these buses to pass the stops and move on their way. Maybe then the 161 would save a minute or 2.

Of course, this won't stop Winnipeg Transit from false advertising.

BLUE is a new rapid transit line that will provide frequent, reliable, high-speed service between Downtown, the University of Manitoba and St. Norbert.

This is all because of a political system that makes politicians want to announce large projects, and it doesn't matter if the project is actually an improvement. When it comes to spending on transit, the project should not be allowed to go through, unless it can be demonstrated that it is the best use of funds.

If the new spine/feeder system is going to go through, it must be proven that yes-- it will save the average traveler x number of minutes. But I'm quite sure that that x would be negative.

[rrskylar]

When arguing for building the SWRT they touted time savings of 7-10 minutes per trip but only used the 160 and 161 as the benchmark for times and ignored the 160 and 161 Express times which would have defeated the argument for the SWRT time saving all together, a proper cost/ benefit analysis was never done and the city just steamrolled it through.

[DancingDuck]

Given that the new phase isn't even open yet it's maybe a bit early to ask whether it's an improvement or a deterioration?

The poll itself is also nonsensical...

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by DancingDuck

............
The poll itself is also nonsensical...

I'm sorry you had to choose the "SWRT2 is good, I like wasting time on a bus" option. I just couldn't think of another reason someone would be in favour of the SWRT2.

[bomberjet]

Frequency and avoiding delays will be the advantage.

We'll see how it works out after the first winter season.

[buzzg]

This thread should be deleted, it's dumb. I've never seen a more biased poll in my life.

[The Jabroni]

Kind of hard to take this thread seriously, when the BLUE route hasn't even been put to service yet.

I'd wait until April of next year to see how this whole thing panned out, whether or not it saved a few minutes.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

Kind of hard to take this thread seriously, when the BLUE route hasn't even been put to service yet.

I'd wait until April of next year to see how this whole thing panned out, whether or not it saved a few minutes.

It damn well better save a few minutes or what was the point!

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

It damn well better save a few minutes or what was the point!

Maybe if they didn't fuck around with LRT plan shelving, or shelved Glen Murrays BRT, we would've actually gotten something decent for Winnipeg?

But of course instead, we got Pallister playing around as a dictator, slashing funds and locking people in their homes, getting WPS to mop up his own mess... along with Katz and other former mayors, also blasting out the basis of Winnipeg Transit from the bottom up...

We could've done this right the first time DECADES ago. Instead, we get this solution straight out of a childrens placemat from Denny's. Its bullshit.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by armorand93

Maybe if they didn't fuck around with LRT plan shelving, or shelved Glen Murrays BRT, we would've actually gotten something decent for Winnipeg?

But of course instead, we got Pallister playing around as a dictator, slashing funds and locking people in their homes, getting WPS to mop up his own mess... along with Katz and other former mayors, also blasting out the basis of Winnipeg Transit from the bottom up...

We could've done this right the first time DECADES ago. Instead, we get this solution straight out of a childrens placemat from Denny's. Its bullshit.

Dude I guarantee that none of the current brt fiasco is on pallister. He wasn't even in the picture when these decisions were made. Wouldn't make a difference either. All our politicians are spineless and fail to get anything worthwhile done.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Dude I guarantee that none of the current brt fiasco is on pallister. He wasn't even in the picture when these decisions were made. Wouldn't make a difference either. All our politicians are spineless and fail to get anything worthwhile done.

No kidding, blaming Pallister for the circuitous route of the second leg of SWBRT is absurd!

It was slippery Katz and the clueless city council who okayed the ridiculous non-direct route to the benefit of a select few!

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

No kidding, blaming Pallister for the circuitous route of the second leg of SWBRT is absurd!

It was slippery Katz and the clueless city council who okayed the ridiculous non-direct route to the benefit of a select few!

Pretty much a select one..

[njaohnt]

The bend in the route is to save costs with rail relocation (In my opinion they could have put one lane on each side, so no rail relocation would be required). It was a significant savings, so all taxpayers benefitted from it.

Anyways, that's not the problem. At 70 kph, the extra 1.5 km only adds 77 seconds. The problem is all the stops. Imagine no stops. The transitway is only used by people going to and from downtown, and another route brings people from Pembina to the express routes that get off the transitway. This is the only way to actually save time, and at 80 kph would save 6 minutes over the 161 at 27 kph. I still don't think this would be worth it, but this is as fast as it gets. There would also be a huge saving in costs not having to build 8 multi-million dollar stations. You just can't have stops and expect to save time anywhere in Winnipeg, besides in and around downtown, as the traffic just isn't that bad.

The cost-benefit analysis that was done assumed 19 kph as a baseline and 28 kph for BRT. If the accurate figure of 27 kph as a baseline were used, I wonder if this project would have even gone through.

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Frequency and avoiding delays will be the advantage.

We'll see how it works out after the first winter season.

Except downtown will still be a problem because transit vehicles are delayed by any massive traffic on south Main St. and on Portage west of Colony St. to Balmoral Station.

So when will the Winnipeg Railway Museum be moved? How soon can this happen is not fast enough.

And once the transit buses get onto U of M property on University Crescent...have you ridden the bus on that street? Terrible roadway, bumpidy bumpidy bump, that needs immediate attention (repaving). It's another failed street (like Stafford), due to all those buses going on University Cres. How soon will it be repaired?

We could have had improved (repaved) south Main, University Cres., for god sakes as part of the 1/2 Billion for this awful half-assed project.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

Except downtown will still be a problem because transit vehicles are delayed by any massive traffic on south Main St. and on Portage west of Colony St. to Balmoral Station.

For what it's worth the impact of traffic on those stretches is mitigated by the use of diamond lanes. They aren't an exclusive right of way but they are substantially better than nothing...

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by njaohnt

The bend in the route is to save costs with rail relocation (In my opinion they could have put one lane on each side, so no rail relocation would be required). It was a significant savings, so all taxpayers benefitted from it.

That wasn't the reason at all. In fact, the choice to use the dogleg route required a large underpass beneath the CN junction at Pembina/Jubilee, and a large overpass by Plaza Drive. Two of the biggest engineering projects on the entire phase 2, and neither one would have been needed if they chose the rail corridor option.

The two main reasons that were given for choosing the dogleg were (1) fewer crossings of residential streets and (2) more empty land so more opportunities for TOD.

Originally Posted by esquire

For what it's worth the impact of traffic on those stretches is mitigated by the use of diamond lanes. They aren't an exclusive right of way but they are substantially better than nothing...

Yeah, the only systematic problem I find with the on-street section of the RT is southbound Main at Broadway, which gets severely backed up in the PM rush due to the conflict between stopping buses and right-turning traffic. Hard to see how that could be fixed, short of banning right turns or eliminating the bus stop (or, of course, the eventual route through Union Station).

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

Hard to see how that could be fixed, short of banning right turns or eliminating the bus stop (or, of course, the eventual route through Union Station).

Move the bus stop past Broadway?

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

That wasn't the reason at all. In fact, the choice to use the dogleg route required a large underpass beneath the CN junction at Pembina/Jubilee, and a large overpass by Plaza Drive. Two of the biggest engineering projects on the entire phase 2, and neither one would have been needed if they chose the rail corridor option.

The two main reasons that were given for choosing the dogleg were (1) fewer crossings of residential streets and (2) more empty land so more opportunities for TOD.

Those might have been part of it, but it was still a cost savings. (296M compared to 313M in the original study)

Yeah, the only systematic problem I find with the on-street section of the RT is southbound Main at Broadway, which gets severely backed up in the PM rush due to the conflict between stopping buses and right-turning traffic. Hard to see how that could be fixed, short of banning right turns or eliminating the bus stop (or, of course, the eventual route through Union Station).

They should get rid of that stop immediately (except for buses that turn). The AM rush is bad too. I don't know why we have to wait an extra 2 - 5 minutes in traffic just so a few people don't have to walk for a minute to Assiniboine. They could even move that stop closer.

[borkborkbork]

the full route from graham transit mall down to the university station seems to be all of about 5 minutes shorter based on the schedules.

i mean, great that I'll get to the bombers game 5 mins faster, but half a billion seems steep

in all honesty it feels like the real winners here are drivers (it takes a whole bunch of buses off regular roads).

a perfect manitoba project: a giant transit investment that yields negligible improvements to transit but makes life easier for drivers.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by njaohnt

Those might have been part of it, but it was still a cost savings. (296M compared to 313M in the original study)



They should get rid of that stop immediately (except for buses that turn). The AM rush is bad too. I don't know why we have to wait an extra 2 - 5 minutes in traffic just so a few people don't have to walk for a minute to Assiniboine. They could even move that stop closer.

they should just convert the giant median thing on main just north of assiniboine into a boarding island.



that way, the buses turning onto northbound main wouldn't have to go all the way to the rightmost lane and then shift back to the leftmost lane to turn onto graham.