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View Poll Results: Which is more accurate/better; MSA or CSA?
MSA 29 63.04%
CSA 17 36.96%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2020, 2:54 PM
skysoar skysoar is offline
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
There are several other examples: New York and Bridgeport, Detroit and Ann Arbor, Los Angeles and San Bernardino, Cleveland and Akron and the list goes on and on.

That's why to me CSA is vastly superior to MSA. It only inflates some metro areas with a couple of rural countries that makes no difference on the grand scheme of things. On the other hand those examples I mentioned above create massive distortions.
I agree with most of your examples, but i disagree with Cleveland and Akron. There is not that much connectivity between the two, Akron and Canton is a different story. I consider MSA a more definitive example of a cities influence, to me CMSA are predominately a more lazier way to gather facts and statistics for marketing purposes.
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  #22  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2020, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by skysoar View Post
I agree with most of your examples, but i disagree with Cleveland and Akron. There is not that much connectivity between the two, Akron and Canton is a different story. I consider MSA a more definitive example of a cities influence, to me CMSA are predominately a more lazier way to gather facts and statistics for marketing purposes.
I disagree. Metropolitan areas can be polycentric and Cleveland-Akron just happen to be one. Even supposedly monocentric metropolitan areas (Los Angeles, Tokyo, São Paulo) have multiple nodes of employment scattered all over the urban area.

I just looked for Summit and Portage on Google Maps and their northern sections of both are taken by suburban sprawl from Cleveland and there are continuously urbanized areas all the way down to Downtown Akron, located on the southern part of the county.

About Canton MSA, it's now included on Cleveland CSA and I find it perfectly reasonable as well.

That's what I said: sometimes CSAs definitions have a couple of more rural counties attached that makes no difference. MSAs, on the other hand, have several examples of problematic definitions.
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  #23  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2020, 4:20 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
I disagree. Metropolitan areas can be polycentric and Cleveland-Akron just happen to be one. Even supposedly monocentric metropolitan areas (Los Angeles, Tokyo, São Paulo) have multiple nodes of employment scattered all over the urban area.
I dont think anyone has ever said those cities are mono-centric
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  #24  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2020, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I dont think anyone has ever said those cities are mono-centric
I meant they usually don't have an hyphen attached to their name (Washington-Baltimore) or a regional label (Ruhrgebiet, Bay Area)
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  #25  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2020, 5:38 PM
skysoar skysoar is offline
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
I disagree. Metropolitan areas can be polycentric and Cleveland-Akron just happen to be one. Even supposedly monocentric metropolitan areas (Los Angeles, Tokyo, São Paulo) have multiple nodes of employment scattered all over the urban area.

I just looked for Summit and Portage on Google Maps and their northern sections of both are taken by suburban sprawl from Cleveland and there are continuously urbanized areas all the way down to Downtown Akron, located on the southern part of the county.

About Canton MSA, it's now included on Cleveland CSA and I find it perfectly reasonable as well.

That's what I said: sometimes CSAs definitions have a couple of more rural counties attached that makes no difference. MSAs, on the other hand, have several examples of problematic definitions.
My response to this statement is that, 40 percent of the workforce between Summit (Akron) and Stark (Canton) cross county lines whereas only 19 percent of the workforce of Cuyahoga and Summit cross county lines, and this is how combining metros are determined by the OMB. I would add this is why Akron and Canton have filed with the OBM to become one Metro area as they supersede the threshold of 25 percent. Also the Cuyahoga Valley National Park which lies between them is the great barrier of any continuity of Cleveland flow and Akron flow. Lastly there is no such thing governmentally as the Cleveland CMSA. There is the Cleveland-Akron- Canton CMSA to be correct, an area probably 60 to 70 miles north to south and therein lies the problem with the vast majority of categorizing CMSA , they are too ambiguous to be reliably definitive.
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  #26  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2020, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by skysoar View Post
My response to this statement is that, 40 percent of the workforce between Summit (Akron) and Stark (Canton) cross county lines whereas only 19 percent of the workforce of Cuyahoga and Summit cross county lines, and this is how combining metros are determined by the OMB. I would add this is why Akron and Canton have filed with the OBM to become one Metro area as they supersede the threshold of 25 percent. Also the Cuyahoga Valley National Park which lies between them is the great barrier of any continuity of Cleveland flow and Akron flow. Lastly there is no such thing governmentally as the Cleveland CMSA. There is the Cleveland-Akron- Canton CMSA to be correct, an area probably 60 to 70 miles north to south and therein lies the problem with the vast majority of categorizing CMSA , they are too ambiguous to be reliably definitive.
I agree with you that Akron and Canton are more culturally connected than Akron and Cleveland. But physically I'd say Akron is more connected to Cleveland. Sure the national park is in between, but its nothing both sprawl down both sides of the park. The park is more of an island surrounded by Cleveland/Akron. The entire northern third of Summit County (Akron) is comprised of Cleveland suburbs, as is a good chunk of Portage County (the other county in the Akron MSA). Richfield, Sagamore Hills, Northfield, Twinsburg, Aurora, Streetsboro, Boston Hts, even half of Hudson, is all Cleveland sprawl. If we are going to say the Akron MSA is not connected to Cleveland, then that's something like 100,000 people that should be subtracted from Akron and added to Cleveland. The reverse can be said about Wadsworth (Medina County, Cleveland MSA) which is thoroughly an Akron suburb.

I know Akron loves their independence from Cleveland, but the reality is that Cleveland sprawl has been swallowing it up. The two are thoroughly connected, and everything I just said speaks to how absurd MSA measurement can be.
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  #27  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 12:41 AM
skysoar skysoar is offline
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Originally Posted by PoshSteve View Post
I agree with you that Akron and Canton are more culturally connected than Akron and Cleveland. But physically I'd say Akron is more connected to Cleveland. Sure the national park is in between, but its nothing both sprawl down both sides of the park. The park is more of an island surrounded by Cleveland/Akron. The entire northern third of Summit County (Akron) is comprised of Cleveland suburbs, as is a good chunk of Portage County (the other county in the Akron MSA). Richfield, Sagamore Hills, Northfield, Twinsburg, Aurora, Streetsboro, Boston Hts, even half of Hudson, is all Cleveland sprawl. If we are going to say the Akron MSA is not connected to Cleveland, then that's something like 100,000 people that should be subtracted from Akron and added to Cleveland. The reverse can be said about Wadsworth (Medina County, Cleveland MSA) which is thoroughly an Akron suburb.

I know Akron loves their independence from Cleveland, but the reality is that Cleveland sprawl has been swallowing it up. The two are thoroughly connected, and everything I just said speaks to how absurd MSA measurement can be.
Last thing i will say on this topic is Clevelands population is close to 370,000, down from 914.00 at its highpoint, Cuyahoga county continues to slowly bleed out down to almost 1.2 million, down from a highpoint of 1.72 million. Also its Metro has fallen to Ohio;s third largest. There is no sprawl from Cleveland, sadly more like an light evacuation. Hopefully Cleveland can rebound in the future , but at this point its location at the far north point of Northeast Ohio works against its influence, though it is still a respectable Metro of 2 million. Meanwhile what little population growth in N.E Ohio continues to shift further southward toward the Akron/Canton Metro. Finally i believe CMSA were more relevant when they were basically confined to the Greater New York , Los Angeles, and the Chicago-IL areas, huge urban areas with great influences..
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  #28  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 4:47 PM
westak westak is offline
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Originally Posted by skysoar View Post
Last thing i will say on this topic is Clevelands population is close to 370,000, down from 914.00 at its highpoint, Cuyahoga county continues to slowly bleed out down to almost 1.2 million, down from a highpoint of 1.72 million. Also its Metro has fallen to Ohio;s third largest. There is no sprawl from Cleveland, sadly more like an light evacuation. Hopefully Cleveland can rebound in the future , but at this point its location at the far north point of Northeast Ohio works against its influence, though it is still a respectable Metro of 2 million. Meanwhile what little population growth in N.E Ohio continues to shift further southward toward the Akron/Canton Metro. Finally i believe CMSA were more relevant when they were basically confined to the Greater New York , Los Angeles, and the Chicago-IL areas, huge urban areas with great influences..
There's still sprawl from Cleveland/Cuyahoga...Eastern Lorain County, Medina County and Northern Summit and Northern Portage. Are you from the Cleveland area? Between this and saying there's not much connectivity between Akron and Cleveland it is an odd statement. I would agree that there is some cultural disconnect once you get south of the turnpike but I've worked all over NEO and from a Urban/Suburban sprawl standpoint they are connected.
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  #29  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by PoshSteve View Post
I agree with you that Akron and Canton are more culturally connected than Akron and Cleveland. But physically I'd say Akron is more connected to Cleveland. Sure the national park is in between, but its nothing both sprawl down both sides of the park. The park is more of an island surrounded by Cleveland/Akron. The entire northern third of Summit County (Akron) is comprised of Cleveland suburbs, as is a good chunk of Portage County (the other county in the Akron MSA). Richfield, Sagamore Hills, Northfield, Twinsburg, Aurora, Streetsboro, Boston Hts, even half of Hudson, is all Cleveland sprawl. If we are going to say the Akron MSA is not connected to Cleveland, then that's something like 100,000 people that should be subtracted from Akron and added to Cleveland. The reverse can be said about Wadsworth (Medina County, Cleveland MSA) which is thoroughly an Akron suburb.

I know Akron loves their independence from Cleveland, but the reality is that Cleveland sprawl has been swallowing it up. The two are thoroughly connected, and everything I just said speaks to how absurd MSA measurement can be.
I agree with your first paragraph but would disagree with your second. Cleveland Sprawl is not so agressive that Akronites would feel swallowed up by it. I agree that the areas are connected, and even more so since Route 8 as Freeway was extended up to 271 about 10 years ago but no one I know in Akron(or its suburbs) feels like they are a part of Cleveland. It's only once you get up to Hudson and north of Turnpike do people feel that way.
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  #30  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 5:42 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
San Francisco-San Jose being separate MSAs doesn't make sense (even though I understand the technical reason for it).
Agreed, these two should be combined since there is so much social and economic overlap between these two currently separated MSAs.

Together they'd be the 6th largest MSA, behind NYC, LA, Chicago, Dallas, and Houston, which I think would be more in line with the Bay Area's cultural and economic standing in the country.

Instead, SF is 12th and SJ is 35th.
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  #31  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 5:45 PM
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cleveland akron canton are completely connected by suburbia by any stretch of the definition and have been for quite awhile. yes cuyahoga and cle have lost population, but they arent all moving to columbus or florida. i think the historic exodus has quite slowed or hopefully even halted recently, but the fact is most didnt move far. who do you think is making up these ‘burbs? obviously its not many move ins to ne ohio, its ne ohioans themselves. i would encourage you to take a peek at a satellite night pic sometime sky.
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  #32  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2020, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
Agreed, these two should be combined since there is so much social and economic overlap between these two currently separated MSAs.

Together they'd be the 6th largest MSA, behind NYC, LA, Chicago, Dallas, and Houston, which I think would be more in line with the Bay Area's cultural and economic standing in the country.

Instead, SF is 12th and SJ is 35th.
And the 3rd largest GDP, by quite a large margin at that.
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  #33  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 9:39 PM
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Importance, reach, and worth are best reflected by MSA and, in a few select cases, CSA. Those are factors that go beyond the size of a place, and that's where UA (either singularly or in combination with surrounding adjacent UAs) does a better job.
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  #34  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2020, 6:41 PM
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MSA, CSA, UA, Urban Agglomeration are all just alternatives to measure a cities’ size, population, coverage, importance etc. They are all useful and all problematic. For example, it is probably useful to consider Minneapolis- St. Paul as a highly unified urban agglomeration and thus MSA kind makes sense as well. But Dallas-Ft. Worth as a single entity begins to stretch the concept of an MSA and Baltimore- Washington really is a strange idea of a CSA as the two cities have distinctly different and rich histories. Cities and urban areas are simply products of their time. Atlanta, Houston, Phoenix represent very large and spread out MSAs and modern car based suburban development. In these cases there were no historical big cities nearby in competition. Because in most of the US we have little or no rural urban-rural zoning it is often impossible to tell when you are leaving one political city and entering another. European cities often have historically delineated rural and urban areas making it possible to no when you are actually leaving the urban higher dense area (take the train or drive between Cologne, Dusseldorf, Dortmund, Essen, Bockum, etc in the Ruhr and you see highly built up distinguishable cities separated by farms and rural areas). In contrast, in the US, hard to know when you are leaving Chicago, LA, Atlanta, Miami, etc.
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