US Cities that are Helped/Hurt by being near Larger US Cities

[badrunner]

Phoenix, Las Vegas and Reno all benefit from their proximity to large CA metros, even though they're hundreds of miles away.

[bobdreamz]

Originally Posted by dave8721

There is also relatively similar sized cities that are close to each other: Orlando and Tampa/St.Pete. They are so close that only 1 gets a sports team for each sport. 1 NBA team (Orlando), 1 NFL Team (Tampa), 1 baseball (Tampa), 1 hockey (Tampa). Orlando could have easily been the one to support the teams but Tampa was large first and Orlando was too close to be its own true independent sports market and get its own teams.

I don't think Tampa really overshadows Orlando that much though.
It pretty much holds its own now regardless of sport teams.

[bobdreamz]

delete

[Crawford]

Why would people move from NY to Philly specifically due to the pandemic? Makes zero sense.

Anyways, I agree that modern-day Philly benefits from proximity to NYC, and the NE Corridor in general, as the whole corridor has a symbiotic relationship.

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by mhays

I assume this is a joke!

But yes, central cities do benefit from their suburbs in some ways...San Jose plays a big "bedroom" role for starters, as diamondpark shows.

Many of the new residential towers that have gone up in San Francisco are home to tech workers who work in the Silicon Valley. There’s definitely a symbiotic relationship between SF and Silicon Valley.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by urban_encounter

Many of the new residential towers that have gone up in San Francisco are home to tech workers who work in the Silicon Valley. There’s definitely a symbiotic relationship between SF and Silicon Valley.

Is that true, though? "Many" of the condo buyers in downtown SF work in Menlo Park, Palo Alto and Cupertino? Not saying it's impossible, but its sounds pretty implausible, at least if we're talking primary homes. That would be a hell commute, and wealthy people have no need to put up with a hell commute.

I don't doubt that a huge % of downtown SF homebuyers work in tech, but probably in SF, not in SV. If they work in the suburbs, maybe somewhere like Amgen in South SF. There are a lot of biotech jobs close to SF.

20-somethings taking Google buses in pre-pandemic times aren't typically buying downtown condos, I don't think. Probably living in shared rentals in the Mission or thereabouts.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Why would people move from NY to Philly specifically due to the pandemic? Makes zero sense.

Anyways, I agree that modern-day Philly benefits from proximity to NYC, and the NE Corridor in general, as the whole corridor has a symbiotic relationship.

More space in Philadelphia for cheaper, with easy access to NYC still? Seems like a no brainer to me. Real estate trends the past year have ACUTALLY been driven by peoples needs during the pandemic. Seems silly and shortsighted, I agree, but still, that's what happened. I should know... I work in new construction real estate.

If you no longer have to be in NYC, why stay and pay those insanely high prices? Like 3rd&Brown said, you can move to Philadelphia and get a 1900 square foot new construction home in Philly for the same cost of a studio in NYC.... and you still have an awesome, urban city at your fingertips to boot.

Of course, this isn't going to be EVERYONES line of thinking, but I can certainly see why people would feel like that and want more space to spread out.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by summersm343

More space in Philadelphia for cheaper, with easy access to NYC still? Seems like a no brainer to me. If you no longer have to be in NYC, why stay and pay those insanely high prices?

This makes no sense. Philly was "cheaper with more space" probably since the 1700's. I'm asking what the pandemic has to do with this. And what does "have to be in NYC" mean? I don't know of any job that requires NYC residency. Even NYC govt. jobs don't require NYC residency.

Any pandemic-related effects in urban core NYC, positive or negative, would obviously be replicated in urban core Philly (and other major urban cores). The narrative around the pandemic was that people were relocating (or temporarily sheltering) in bucolic areas. So places like Bucks County, PA would benefit. But why would someone move to Center City, one of the densest and busiest geographies in the U.S., for the purpose of hiding from other humans?

[mrnyc]

actually the narrative is that if you can work remotely now why pay all that money to live in nyc. thus philly is benefitting from nyc exodus. as are other cities. allegedly.

[Shawn]

How much has Wilmington benefited from being right down 95 from Philly? As opposed to benefiting more so from Delaware's substantially better tax setup vs. PA's?

That's one thing Providence doesn't have going for it vis-a-vis a close Boston proximity: RI taxes, especially corporate, are much worse than MA's.

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

It states US cities but pretty much is all covered on the first page, so let’s go down here:

Campinas (3 million people metro area, 60 miles north São Paulo) greatly benefited from being that close to the state capital. It captured all of São
Paulo deindustrialization and it became an economic powerhouse on its own.

I’m not thinking of other examples elsewhere.

Yeah, sorry. I said US-based, but totally open to hearing about international cities as well!

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Is that true, though? "Many" of the condo buyers in downtown SF work in Menlo Park, Palo Alto and Cupertino? Not saying it's impossible, but its sounds pretty implausible, at least if we're talking primary homes. That would be a hell commute, and wealthy people have no need to put up with a hell commute.

I don't doubt that a huge % of downtown SF homebuyers work in tech, but probably in SF, not in SV. If they work in the suburbs, maybe somewhere like Amgen in South SF. There are a lot of biotech jobs close to SF.

20-somethings taking Google buses in pre-pandemic times aren't typically buying downtown condos, I don't think. Probably living in shared rentals in the Mission or thereabouts.

I used to work in SV and more people than you would think commuted daily from SF to SV.

SF really is a world-class city, and if you have enough money to live there and take a free shuttle, why not?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

actually the narrative is that if you can work remotely now why pay all that money to live in nyc. thus philly is benefitting from nyc exodus. as are other cities. allegedly.

That narrative doesn't make sense either, as it assumes that people don't like living in cities, and are only there because of their jobs. And then it wouldn't make sense for Philly either, as Center City would have the same phenomenon as NYC, as it's the most expensive part of Philly region and biggest job center.

And if that were truly the case, why didn't these people live in the much cheaper, more spacious suburbs prior to Covid? And why were they living in the most expensive parts of their metros, often enduring longer commutes than in the cheaper areas? It takes longer to get to Midtown from Park Slope than from lower Westchester, and I suspect the Philly Main Line is a shorter commute than many core Philly neighborhoods.

In reality, people living in urban centers generally prefer urban lifestyles, and this has little to do with their jobs. Urban centers were cheap when jobs were heavily concentrated in urban cores in the 1960's and 70's, and now they're expensive when jobs are heavily concentrated in the periphery, obviously suggesting that high(er) prices in American cores is due to preference for urban living, moreso than preference for employment proximity. And the mass reverse-commuting you see in every metro confirms this.

[hauntedheadnc]

The Greenville-Spartanburg metro benefits enormously from being midway between Charlotte and Atlanta, as companies wishing to be close to both can locate here and get the best of both worlds, plus proximity to two interstate highways, rail hubs, plus the inland port terminal that was built precisely because of Greenville-Spartanburg's proximity to two major cities and transportation hubs. The result is a little blob of Atlanta in the middle of the Upstate South Carolina. Without that proximity, neither Greenville or Spartanburg would be much of anything.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That narrative doesn't make sense either, as it assumes that people don't like living in cities, and are only there because of their jobs. And then it wouldn't make sense for Philly either, as Center City would have the same phenomenon as NYC, as it's the most expensive part of Philly region and biggest job center.

And if that were truly the case, why didn't these people live in the much cheaper, more spacious suburbs prior to Covid? And why were they living in the most expensive parts of their metros, often enduring longer commutes than in the cheaper areas? It takes longer to get to Midtown from Park Slope than from lower Westchester, and I suspect the Philly Main Line is a shorter commute than many core Philly neighborhoods.

In reality, people living in urban centers generally prefer urban lifestyles, and this has little to do with their jobs. Urban centers were cheap when jobs were heavily concentrated in urban cores in the 1960's and 70's, and now they're expensive when jobs are heavily concentrated in the periphery, obviously suggesting that high(er) prices in American cores is due to preference for urban living, moreso than preference for employment proximity. And the mass reverse-commuting you see in every metro confirms this.

I've absolutely known people who've relocated from NYC to Philly. The pull seems to be that you can live a roughly similar lifestyle to say living in Brooklyn, but housing prices are affordable enough that you can actually afford to buy a rowhouse without being a couple with six-figure salaries or otherwise independently wealthy.

[kool maudit]

If Stockholm had a "Philly" nearby, I could see moving on the basis of work becoming a monthly train ride in for a specific meeting, but otherwise taking place from home.

Unfortunately, while Nörrkoping is a nice town, it's hardly a Philadelphia... or a Stockholm.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I've absolutely known people who've relocated from NYC to Philly. The pull seems to be that you can live a roughly similar lifestyle to say living in Brooklyn, but housing prices are affordable enough that you can actually afford to buy a rowhouse without being a couple with six-figure salaries or otherwise independently wealthy.

Again, this isn't what I'm talking about. Philly obviously has lower housing prices than Brooklyn, and there's always movement from higher cost locales to lower cost locales.

I'm asking about the Covid narrative, with people supposedly fleeing into rural areas, and how it fits with pandemic-related moves to core Philly. Obviously Center City would be affected by Covid the same as other urban cores, and Philly is about as cramped/crowded as it gets in the U.S. outside of NYC.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I've absolutely known people who've relocated from NYC to Philly. The pull seems to be that you can live a roughly similar lifestyle to say living in Brooklyn, but housing prices are affordable enough that you can actually afford to buy a rowhouse without being a couple with six-figure salaries or otherwise independently wealthy.

^ The whole problem here is that most people who want to live in or around NYC and still have an urban lifestyle can still afford to do so in one of the outer boroughs without having to move 80 miles away. Queens is still an option as well.

Plus, if you don't care about an urban lifestyle than of course you've got the suburbs.

So I'm trying to figure out what the market is for NYC-oriented urban lovers moving to Philly for affordability, and I'm just not seeing it.

If you're going to move to Center City Philly, you're going to move there because you actually like Philly, not because you want to have access to NYC but you can't afford it.

[Northern Light]

Partially outside the U.S......

But I would argue Buffalo, NY may be beginning to see real benefit from being in Toronto's orbit.

Pandemic excluded, certainly Buffalo retail has had a lot of Canadian clientele over the years; but you also have Buffalo as jumping off point for many Canadian businesses entering the U.S.

There are also students from southern Ontario who attend UB and more than a few residents of Buffalo get their degrees north of the border as well.

***

Obviously many Buffalo residents have also (again pre-Covid) enjoyed spending weekends in Toronto.

[Skintreesnail]

The move from NYC to Philly due to covid makes sense to me if someone was previously in an apartment building, paying crazy rent and getting no outdoor space and looking for a single family home with a small backyard that is still in a dense and urban environment. Most of Philly's housing stock is single family, with some of the larger rows converted to a few condos, which still would probably be better than apartments. It is still very urban in Philly, but if you have a whole rowhouse to yourself with even a small backyard it's just enough to overcome the anxiety of dense living during a pandemic, especially if you're drawn to dense, urban living and don't want to move to the suburbs/rural areas. Plus many neighborhoods within walking distance of center city, university city or the train to NYC.

I just really quick on zillow for homes in Queens/Brooklyn less than 500k and it's pretty slim pickings compared to Philly. I mean Philly is not NYC obviously, but it's a big city, historic, lots of art and culture and has plenty to like about it. Also, I don't think Philly had the same level of exodus during the pandemic, so that must say something; many people are willing to stick it out for now. That said, if prices keep going down in NYC and the pandemic vanishes, NYC is going to quickly fill to bursting again.