HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #101  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:20 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I'm a parent with two children living in the city, and I concur.

However, if you're talking about a vibrant mixed-use neighborhood, that generally means you want to have an active commercial district. And when considering commercial vitality, the number of households is more important than the number of people, given children don't really buy much, even if they do walk around the neighborhood. Therefore all things considered, "family-friendly" urban neighborhoods need even higher population densities then popular neighborhoods for young people to be as commercially vibrant.
Yes to all this. I'm also happy living in an family-friendly urban neighborhood, but realize that, pound-for-pound, it's less vibrant than a singles-oriented neighborhood.

Kids aren't opening businesses, and their parents are dead-tired by 9. Families consume less than equivalent counts of singles. Weekday nights it gets quiet pretty early for NYC standards, in part because of kiddos.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #102  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:27 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,544
This is what I've now been taught about "urbanism" in this thread...

Milwaukee's densely-populated neighborhoods aren't really as dense as the numbers show because their built form isn't all that "urban" and there's a lot of Latinos living together in wood frame housing. But if the neighborhoods were populated by young, single, affluent non-immigrants, then they would display that "good urbanity" with new bistros and galleries and such. And these densely-populated neighborhoods would now be considered urban enough that their densities would likely not be questioned.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #103  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:37 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
However, if you're talking about a vibrant mixed-use neighborhood, that generally means you want to have an active commercial district. And when considering commercial vitality, the number of households is more important than the number of people, given children don't really buy much, even if they do walk around the neighborhood. Therefore all things considered, "family-friendly" urban neighborhoods need even higher population densities then popular neighborhoods for young people to be as commercially vibrant.
i get all of that.

but for me the ideal is a mixture of all ages.

one of the reasons we settled on moving our young family to our current city neighborhood over the burbs was because the burbs we were looking at are overwhelmingly dominated by young families, which, combined with the >75% SFH aspect, basically kills vibrancy and functional walkable urbanism.

what we found in our city neighbrohood was enough family-freindliness to feel like we belong, but also enough of the young childless professional group that is a prime driver of restaurant/bar vibrancy.

like i said, having ages mixed together is far more preferable than living in a hipster ghetto, in my opinion.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Jan 30, 2018 at 9:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #104  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:46 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
This is what I've now been taught about "urbanism" in this thread...

Milwaukee's densely-populated neighborhoods aren't really as dense as the numbers show because their built form isn't all that "urban" and there's a lot of Latinos living together in wood frame housing. But if the neighborhoods were populated by young, single, affluent non-immigrants, then they would display that "good urbanity" with new bistros and galleries and such. And these densely-populated neighborhoods would now be considered urban enough that their densities would likely not be questioned.
You just keep strawmanning here don't you?

There's two separate issues:

1. The built form in the Milwaukee neighborhoods I highlighted is not particularly urban for the Great Lakes. Note that I'm not saying it's categorically not urban - only that there's plenty of neighborhoods which look exactly like this in terms of built form elsewhere in the Great Lakes region. Of course if you consider the lake-shore towers it's a different matter entirely - besides Milwaukee, that typology really only exists in Chicago and Lakewood, OH (Cleveland suburb).

2. The population density of the region is boosted because it became a Latino area. Unlike black and many working-class white neighborhoods during the mid 20th century, Latino neighborhoods generally didn't experience population declines. They didn't have as rapid of a fall in number of children per family, had more multi-generational households, and due to high residential demand, few homes were abandoned and/or lost to the wrecking ball.

Last edited by eschaton; Jan 30, 2018 at 9:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #105  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:49 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
^ for like the 4th or 5th time now, there's a lot more to milwaukee's density stats than just the SW side workers cottages crammed full of multi-generational latino families.

and FWIW, those dense latino neighborhoods on the SW side have helped keep retail streets like the one linked below mostly intact and alive.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0122...7i13312!8i6656

in places that experienced heavy white flight without latino influx, streets like the above often just crumbled..... gone forever.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #106  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:54 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ for like the 4th or 5th time now, there's a lot more to milwaukee's density stats than just the SW side workers cottages crammed full of multi-generational latino families.
I realize that. He keeps misrepresenting what I initially said as some sort of quasi-racist statement however.

Milwaukee does have an impressive cohesive urban form in its greater downtown and heading northward (interesting it follows the same basic geography as Chicago, although the black/Latino neighborhoods are in different places). But I do think it's more on par with Minneapolis overall in terms of scope than second to only Chicago.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #107  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 8:59 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
and FWIW, those dense latino naeighborhoods on the SW side have helped keep retail streets like the one linked below mostly intact and alive.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0122...7i13312!8i6656

in places that experienced heavy white flight without latino influx, streets like the above often just crumbled.
Yes. As I said, this same dynamic happens nearly everywhere.

For example, in my home state of Connecticut, here is what the main business district in the Latino side of the city looks like. There really isn't an intact business district left on the black side of town.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #108  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:08 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,544
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
You just keep strawmanning here don't you?

There's two separate issues:

1. The built form in the Milwaukee neighborhoods I highlighted is not particularly urban for the Great Lakes. Note that I'm not saying it's categorically not urban - only that there's plenty of neighborhoods which look exactly like this in terms of built form elsewhere in the Great Lakes region. Of course if you consider the lake-shore towers it's a different matter entirely - that typology really only exists in Chicago and Lakewood, OH (Cleveland suburb)

2. The population density of the region is boosted because it became a Latino area. Unlike black and many working-class white neighborhoods during the mid 20th century, Latino neighborhoods generally didn't experience population declines. They didn't have as rapid of a fall in number of children per family, had more multi-generational households, and due to high residential demand, few homes were abandoned and/or lost to the wrecking ball.
It's not a strawman. I summarized what you and Crawford said. I did not make the argument to begin with.

Steely cited population densities of certain tracts in Milwaukee. You challenged those tracts' densities by bringing up their Latino makeup and less than model, I guess, urban vernacular.

I asked why this is somehow a qualifier to their densities and offered that what consitutes how urban a place is differs based on individiual definition.

So...

1. So what? Again, how is this a response (like your intial post) to Steely's post about Milwaukee's densely-populated neighborhoods? I'm still wondering, what is the point? Because they're not "particularly urban" compared to other cities'?

2. So what? So what if a tract's population density is boosted because the human makeup happens to be Latino? I'm not getting what your point here is.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #109  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:08 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
But I do think it's more on par with Minneapolis overall in terms of scope than second to only Chicago.
oh for sure. when it comes to scale and scope of urbanism in the midwest, chicago operates on an entirely different level. chicago is to the rest of the midwest as NYC is to the rest of the nation. it's just on a different level.

when we say things like "milwaukee is like a mine-me chicago", no part of that statement has anything to do with the scale and scope of urbanism found in the two cities. the milwaukee/chicago comparison gets made so often because of their similar geographies (open, public lakefronts and urban river canyons), histories, and demographics. and of course their proximity to each other.

but all of those similarities operate at very different scales.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Jan 30, 2018 at 9:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #110  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:13 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
SSP sponsored field trip to Milwaukee is OBVIOUSLY in order.
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #111  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:15 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,544
As I reminder, here's what you posted. I'm sure what you're stating is true. I'm just wondering why this is the response? Is it just pure analysis? If so, fine. I just watned to understand what you're trying to say with this. Because of the facts you share here, does that make these Milwaukee neighborhoods somehow less dense? Less urban? What?

Originally Posted by eschaton... I've never been to Milwaukee, but looking on population density maps, almost all of the hyper-dense tracts (15,000+ PPSM) are in Latino neighborhoods on the southern side of the city. The built vernacular there isn't incredibly urban. It looks like lots of cottage-style detached wood framed structures with a few larger homes mixed in. Many of them are split into two-units, and it looks like in some cases there might be houses in the alleys. But overall, I'm guessing the relatively high population densities come from a mixture of minimal urban blight (e.g., very few vacant lots or abandoned buildings) and a high number of people per household.

If other Midwestern cities besides Chicago and Milwaukee experienced substantial Hispanic migration, we'd probably see unusually dense neighborhoods of this sort in them as well.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #112  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:15 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
SSP sponsored field trip to Milwaukee is OBVIOUSLY in order.
and we'll all be way too fucking drunk to learn or remember a damn thing.

perhaps that's how milwaukee maintains her mystery.

MILWAUKEE!
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #113  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:18 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
It's not a strawman. I summarized what you and Crawford said. I did not make the argument to begin with.
Your summary was so glib, cartoonish, and yes, "strawman-like", how are we to respond?

We aren't arguing controversial points here. If you believe that my 13-month- old son consumes in the same manner as a 20-something professional, I don't know what to say.

They count exactly the same towards neighborhood density calculations, yet my son is highly unlikely to be seen visiting the local hookah bar at 4 AM anytime soon.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #114  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:19 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is offline
Dryer lint inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston/ SF Bay Area
Posts: 37,783
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight
Schlemiel! Schlimazel! Hasenpfeffer Incorporated!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #115  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:20 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Houston/Galveston
Posts: 1,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
SSP sponsored field trip to Milwaukee is OBVIOUSLY in order.
And Jacksonville. There...I beat at least one poster to it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #116  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:24 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
wait....... milwaukee and jacksonville?

AND JACKSONVILLE!?!

we'll have to make a pit stop in chattanooga.

best american road trip ever!
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #117  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:30 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Your summary was so glib, cartoonish, and yes, "strawman-like", how are we to respond?

We aren't arguing controversial points here. If you believe that my 13-month- old son consumes in the same manner as a 20-something professional, I don't know what to say.

They count exactly the same towards neighborhood density calculations, yet my son is highly unlikely to be seen visiting the local hookah bar at 4 AM anytime soon.
I can agree that it was purposefully glib and cartoonish, but not strawman.

What level of favored "urban" qualities a neighborhood possesses is separate discussion. I can understand that people have differing definitions, and stated as such in my first response to you. I don't hold the same notions of what consitutes an urban environment as you may, and that's ok. And the discussion morphed into one about the characteristics of urbanism in city neighborhoods; what amenties, demographics, etc.

Was trying to support that Milwaukee's densely-populated neighborhoods weren't all that "urban" because of their lack of those amenities available in commercial districts that young, affluent people frequent and due to their demographic/ethnic/architectural vernacular then? I don't know... that's what I've been trying to figure out from the beginning.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #118  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:31 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,544
And I would like to know about Milwaukee pizza.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #119  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:34 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
And I would like to know about Milwaukee pizza.
Jacksonville pizza is better.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #120  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2018, 9:35 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
And I would like to know about Milwaukee pizza.
GO HERE!


source: https://onmilwaukee.com/myOMC/author...res011513.html


you're welcome.

and be sure to get an order of the garlic bread too. it's fucking epic.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:39 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.