Division Transit Project

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by davehogan

There's plenty of safety improvements that could be made without adding MAX. Powell is a major state highway also, whereas Interstate parallels a major state highway (I-5) by a few blocks. They're really not very similar at all.

I don't think that reducing Powell to one lane is going to get much support, especially from the neighborhoods around it. Also I'm not sure where the extra 20+ feet of ROW that MAX would need would be something the neighborhoods would be okay with.

If a MAX line is going to be built east-west through SE then Holgate is probably the better option. It's already got a fairly wide ROW versus the number of lanes except from SE 24th to SE 28th, it could connect to the Orange line at SE 17th and Holgate, but would need to either replace or build a new viaduct to get over Brooklyn yard.

You'd lose a few industrial buildings and a storage place, but Portland seems to prefer that over losing houses. East of 28th you'd lose some on street parking and some houses might lose their front yards, and near I-205 it might be a little tricky, but it seems like it would be a lot easier than Powell.

As another option it could run across Holgate and cut up to Powell somewhere around 50th where the additional ROW from the Mt Hood Freeway starts to show up.

I think Holgate would be a good route, but I don't think it would be a good route for the MAX. Once you go past 28th, it becomes questionable if you can fit MAX tracks for each direction and two lanes of traffic further east than 28th. Though Holgate could definitely handle a streetcar line, which is something I think Portland should utilize more as a transportation tool rather than a development tool.

[zilfondel]

Holgate is 1) too narrow & 2) doesn't have the land-use necessary to support LRT.

Also, east of SE 128th it is essentially rural land, and then Holgate runs smack into Powell Butte (Powell skirts it to the north).

[dubu]

it sucks you cant have holgate or division be lightrail and no cars. just make powell two more lanes to make up for it. then it would have a bottle neck and make people ride the max.

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I think Holgate would be a good route, but I don't think it would be a good route for the MAX. Once you go past 28th, it becomes questionable if you can fit MAX tracks for each direction and two lanes of traffic further east than 28th. Though Holgate could definitely handle a streetcar line, which is something I think Portland should utilize more as a transportation tool rather than a development tool.

Holgate is one lane each direction east of SE 28th. I'm not sure why it would suddenly need two lanes because MAX was added.

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Holgate is 1) too narrow & 2) doesn't have the land-use necessary to support LRT.

Also, east of SE 128th it is essentially rural land, and then Holgate runs smack into Powell Butte (Powell skirts it to the north).

So why not run it for a while on Holgate then North back to Powell or Division?

[hat]

The main reason why Holgate's not really relevant concerns the various points along the corridor that Tri-Met has found important enough to name on the corridor map (the high schools and PCC to name a few).

[hat]

Recent APTA report shows highest ridership in 57 years.

But the most interesting detail in the report for me concerns where the increases were:

"Light rail (modern streetcars, trolleys, and heritage trolleys) ridership increased 1.6 percent in 2013 with 17 out of 27 transit systems reporting increases....

Bus ridership increased by 3.8 percent in cities with a population of below 100,000. Nationally, bus ridership in communities of all sizes remained stable, declining by 0.1 percent."

There seems to be a correlation between faster light rail (and heavy rail) service and an increase in ridership. Despite the expansion of bus systems (including BRT) and frequent service, this did not increase bus ridership in 2013. Perhaps others can delve into these numbers better. This may be a good indicator of how much ridership on Powell will increase when given buses vs. light rail.

[RainDog]

Not surprising. I avoid using buses when at all possible. But I enjoy riding the MAX/Streetcar. I'm sure I'm not alone.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by RainDog

Not surprising. I avoid using buses when at all possible. But I enjoy riding the MAX/Streetcar. I'm sure I'm not alone.

I am a fan of rail transportation, but would rather bike than ride the bus, though I do love to bike.

[hat]

I guess ditto there. Today was so beautiful, I could not help but bike (both directions), despite it being slightly longer than a ride on the MAX.

Best part about being downtown with a bike is one can decide at a whim to take the MAX up the hill (yellow) or a leisurely ride. Similarly, I can imagine having the option of riding down Clinton/Gladstone or taking the Powell MAX out.

It is quite a radical change in lifestyle from relying on local buses. Perhaps if I kept up on my skateboarding, I would have that option as well.

[pdxtex]

portland transit numbers are actually down, some speculate ridership share is being lost to people riding bikes. id rather take a bike then ride sneeze-met any day. that new bridge down yonder is looking sweet though. division is going nuts though. i nearly didnt recognize the intersection over by where division turns into 7th at the new max crossing.

[RainDog]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I am a fan of rail transportation, but would rather bike than ride the bus, though I do love to bike.

Likewise.

I had a brief chance to ride my bike today. It was pure magic (It was sunny and in the mid 60's today)

[dubu]

im a longboarder. i might get a electric longboard and ride it everywhere.

[hat]

The Project Atlas on the library site was released last week. It has every possible map of the corridor. Very helpful.

[dubu]

powell and along 205 would make a good commuter line, i dont know if light rail tracks and commuter rail are the same but portland needs a good commuter train

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by dabom

powell and along 205 would make a good commuter line, i dont know if light rail tracks and commuter rail are the same but portland needs a good commuter train

I don't think there is that big of a demand for a commuter rail system, the light rail currently functions as that.

[dubu]

it depends if the green line and orande line get extended to oregon city, then you wouldnt need commuter trains. that would be way more expencive to have those lines go out there

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by dabom

it depends if the green line and orande line get extended to oregon city, then you wouldnt need commuter trains. that would be way more expencive to have those lines go out there

No, it would be cheaper to extend light rail than it would building a whole new rail system for commuter rail trains.

[dubu]

I guess we wait to see if someone invents a commuter train that can go on lightrail tracks

[cailes]

Originally Posted by dabom

I guess we wait to see if someone invents a commuter train that can go on lightrail tracks

"go on lightrail tracks" is a vague concept.

technically speaking, they can roll on the same tracks. But the issue of boarding levels being equal, platform length being equal, etc becomes a big deal.

Functionally, most manufacturers being considered, they can roll on the same steel.

[dubu]

you can make lightrail trains longer