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  #341  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2020, 7:53 PM
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So yes, its name ultimately comes from his
I agree.
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  #342  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2020, 8:20 PM
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San Francisco was around one-tenth Italian in the early 20th century. But they moved to the suburbs they dispersed. There doesn't seem to be anything resembling an Italian residential concentration in the Bay Area. Might be related to the fact that it attracted largely Northern Italians?
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  #343  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2020, 9:00 PM
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^ North Beach is the "traditional" Italian neighborhood in SF. But I think SF's geography had something to do with it... Immigrants in Chicago tended to move outward along certain corridors... for Italians the settlement pattern lay along Grand Avenue and North Avenue, although there were are still are plenty of Italians outside of this corridor. For Polish people, the equivalent would be Milwaukee or Archer. Jews don't have a single street but generally the Edens Expressway is a good vector.

I assume immigrant groups in NJ and Long Island, Boston, Philly follow similar radial patterns.

SF's peninsular location didn't really allow for radial-style patterns to emerge... as people suburbanized they became a little more far-flung and scattered.
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  #344  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2020, 9:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
^ North Beach is the "traditional" Italian neighborhood in SF.
FYI I recently discovered that the amazing asset known as Caffe' Sport, an "iconic" North Beach Italian seafood place, has closed permanently due to COVID. Thanks you stupid virus.
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  #345  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2020, 1:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
^ North Beach is the "traditional" Italian neighborhood in SF. But I think SF's geography had something to do with it... Immigrants in Chicago tended to move outward along certain corridors... for Italians the settlement pattern lay along Grand Avenue and North Avenue, although there were are still are plenty of Italians outside of this corridor. For Polish people, the equivalent would be Milwaukee or Archer. Jews don't have a single street but generally the Edens Expressway is a good vector.

I assume immigrant groups in NJ and Long Island, Boston, Philly follow similar radial patterns.

SF's peninsular location didn't really allow for radial-style patterns to emerge... as people suburbanized they became a little more far-flung and scattered.
In Toronto the Jewish community runs north along Bathurst St. The Italian community is west of there, around Dufferin and Keele and running in a northwesterly direction.
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  #346  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2020, 3:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
I assume immigrant groups in NJ and Long Island, Boston, Philly follow similar radial patterns.
The thing about Boston's immigrant waves - even among the refugees during the 70s-90s - is that nearly everyone was Catholic. That created more equal dispersal throughout the inner ring burbs among the Irish, Italian, Portuguese, Ukrainian, and later Vietnamese, Cambodian, Haitian, Dominican, and Brazilian groups. Yeah, there are examples of churches which were mostly Italian or mostly Irish, but overall, as long as there was a Saint Whomever (Saint Mary's for me) in town, you'd get Catholics of all stripes.

Jews followed a southwest line, starting in Dorchester and moving through Brookline, Newton, Dedham, and eventually Sharon. Sharon is an interesting case: a little town with a Commuter Rail stop which went from 100% Catholic when my parents were kids in the 50s to nearly 70% Jewish today while tripling in size (~20,000 today). It's Brookline South in every way; there's even an eruv surrounding downtown so that the Orthodox can have normal Saturdays. It's also where I attended 5 bat mitzvahs and 2 bar mitzvahs in 7th/8th grade. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if more Catholics attend mitzvahs than actual Jews do in Southeastern Mass. We often make up at least half the guests!
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  #347  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2020, 5:24 PM
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CA is crazy diverse but more ethnically fluid, if that makes sense. I'm always struck at the level of assimilation and all-American feel in the vast Mexican suburbs of LA. Go someplace like Whittier or Pico Rivera or Downey and it looks like archetypical American suburbia, except it isn't. Go to an all Hispanic suburb in the NYC area, and it is definitely not assimilating in the same manner.
That's because you went to Whittier, Pico Rivera and Downey, which in the grand scheme of things, hasn't been "Mexican" for very long. In fact, those were areas that lower-income Mexican-Americans aspired to move to, and even when they could afford it, were banned from moving there because of restrictive racial/ethnic covenants (prior to the late 1960s).

You have to go to real barrio neighborhoods/suburbs. Try El Monte, South El Monte, Huntington Park, El Sereno, South Gate...
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  #348  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 3:44 AM
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Italian American population mapped for numerous metros

twitter.com/cinyc9/status/1049352399863861248
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  #349  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 4:16 AM
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there is a movement in cleveland to replace the columbus statue with one of their own local italian-american cultural heros --

chef ettore (hector) boiardi --- aka chef boyardee.




https://mavenroundtable.io/theintell...40Cr1P-mXtTbcA
https://www.thrillist.com/news/natio...atue-cleveland


and btw there is also a movement to rename columbus, ohio as flavortown in honor of guy fieri, who was born there:

https://www.thrillist.com/news/natio...ohio-guy-fieri
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  #350  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 1:37 PM
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^I would go to Cleveland just to see a Chef Boyardee statue.
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  #351  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 2:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Italian American population mapped for numerous metros

twitter.com/cinyc9/status/1049352399863861248
This is the much better navigable map that this tweet comes from, showing residents reporting Italian ancestry by census tract

https://www.thecinyc.com/italian

I feel like this has been discussed in this thread before, but a couple of the census tracts in South Philly exceed 70%, which is pretty remarkable. West of Broad Street, South of Passyunk Avenue is where the numbers are still really high. My South Philly census tract is only 24%, used to be very Italian. I'm surprised how high some of the pockets of Italian ancestry are in various suburbs around the northeast/mid-atlantic - numbers in the 40-50% range really aren't that rare.
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  #352  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 2:40 PM
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According to that map, Frankfort NY is pushing 50% (the Utica area is ~25%). Where I live is about 5% which means I am one of the few guidos around here.
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  #353  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 2:42 PM
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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
I feel like this has been discussed in this thread before, but a couple of the census tracts in South Philly exceed 70%, which is pretty remarkable. West of Broad Street, South of Passyunk Avenue is where the numbers are still really high. My South Philly census tract is only 24%, used to be very Italian. I'm surprised how high some of the pockets of Italian ancestry are in various suburbs around the northeast/mid-atlantic - numbers in the 40-50% range really aren't that rare.
True, though that doesn't mean they feel more Italian than, say, South Philly.

A lot of these suburbs are nearly all-white, and whites in the Mid Atlantic tend to be Italian, Irish or Jewish. So pretty much any heavily white suburb of NY or Philly will have a substantial Italian population. For example, if you look at Long Island, basically every white area is heavily Italian, except for a very Jewish corridor on the North Shore. And even on the North Shore, the Italian presence is above-average.

South Philly has a substantial nonwhite population, and the population will tend to be less assimilated, so will feel more Italian even when the overall % is lower.
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  #354  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 2:55 PM
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The maps make intuitive sense for NYC. Dyker Heights, which is probably the most "authentic" urban Italian American residential enclave in the U.S., is most Italian area of Brooklyn, Howard Beach for Queens, Pelham Bay for Bronx. Pretty much the entire South Shore of Staten Island is heavily Italian.
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  #355  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
I haven't read it yet (just found it) but there is a chapter dedicated to the Columbus-as-discoverer story in a book called "The Myths That Made America" by a professor of American Studies in Germany: https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv1w...o_tab_contents

Looks like it can be read online and could have some interesting info.

EDIT: Just from the first few pages, it looks like the emphasis on Columbus as the true discoverer of America started during the revolutionary era, which pretty obviously would be propelled further by anti-British sentiment as pj3000 mentioned.
Latin Americans from all nationalities have always taken an exception to the hijacking of the word America by Americans (from the United States).
Most Latin Americans would agree that the right demonym for people from the United States should have been United Statesman/woman (as odd as that would sound), or something of that sort, but certainly not American, a term that describes people from the whole of the American Continent and the Caribbean.

In any case, the hijacking of the word America (Amerigo Vespucci – Italian explorer) and the historical figure of Christopher Columbus (Cristobal Colon –in Spanish, Cristoforo Colombo in Italian) by the United States would be an early example of “Cultural Appropriation”. As stupid a term that one is in my opinion, it does perfectly qualify for it
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Last edited by PFloyd; Sep 1, 2020 at 3:13 PM.
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  #356  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 4:10 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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^ except americans didnt invent that term. it was applied to them by europeans and others. and frankly its natural and much easier to say than the united states of america, which nobody ever does except at the olympics or something.

also, i dont think latinos have too much problem with the moniker. havent you seen west side story? we are come ing to am merrr i ca. lol.
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  #357  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PFloyd View Post
Latin Americans from all nationalities have always taken an exception to the hijacking of the word America by Americans (from the United States).
Most Latin Americans would agree that the right demonym for people from the United States should have been United Statesman/woman (as odd as that would sound), or something of that sort, but certainly not American, a term that describes people from the whole of the American Continent and the Caribbean.

In any case, the hijacking of the word America (Amerigo Vespucci – Italian explorer) and the historical figure of Christopher Columbus (Cristobal Colon –in Spanish, Cristoforo Colombo in Italian) by the United States would be an early example of “Cultural Appropriation”. As stupid a term that one is in my opinion, it does perfectly qualify for it
Cultural Appropriation? Just. No.

There is a whole country named after Christopher Columbus as well as provinces in Canada and Panama.

Most of the world outside Latin America sees the Americas as two separate continents (N & S America) and the US is the only country with 'America' in its formal name...and refer to us as Americans.
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  #358  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PFloyd View Post
Latin Americans from all nationalities have always taken an exception to the hijacking of the word America by Americans (from the United States).
Most Latin Americans would agree that the right demonym for people from the United States should have been United Statesman/woman (as odd as that would sound), or something of that sort, but certainly not American, a term that describes people from the whole of the American Continent and the Caribbean.

In any case, the hijacking of the word America (Amerigo Vespucci – Italian explorer) and the historical figure of Christopher Columbus (Cristobal Colon –in Spanish, Cristoforo Colombo in Italian) by the United States would be an early example of “Cultural Appropriation”. As stupid a term that one is in my opinion, it does perfectly qualify for it
They already have a demonym for them: Estadounidense. It's pretty commonly used by Latin Americans.

There is also one in French, Étatsunien, but it's much less often used than Américain is.
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  #359  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 6:43 PM
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They already have a demonym for them: Estadounidense. It's pretty commonly used by Latin Americans.

There is also one in French, Étatsunien, but it's much less often used than Américain is.
Of course, thanks for bringing that up. Estadounidense is the spanish demonym used in Latin America which reinforces what I said, about the US unilateral construct about how to call themselves, even though the term American (or americano in spanish) is shared by the entire continent.
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  #360  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
True, though that doesn't mean they feel more Italian than, say, South Philly.

A lot of these suburbs are nearly all-white, and whites in the Mid Atlantic tend to be Italian, Irish or Jewish. So pretty much any heavily white suburb of NY or Philly will have a substantial Italian population. For example, if you look at Long Island, basically every white area is heavily Italian, except for a very Jewish corridor on the North Shore. And even on the North Shore, the Italian presence is above-average.

South Philly has a substantial nonwhite population, and the population will tend to be less assimilated, so will feel more Italian even when the overall % is lower.
Yeah the NHW population in the New York metro is heavily Italian American or Jewish (probably over 50% is one or the other or in some cases both) - and since the Jewish population is quite concentrated in certain suburbs (either with a specific Jewish character or affluent liberal ones), Italian Americans are a very sizable percentage of the non-Jewish white population. Many NY/NJ suburban counties are 20%+ Italian.
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