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  #161  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2020, 6:23 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Good luck replacing your sales and marketing teams with less expensive overseas labor.
I agree with this, but I thought we were talking remote work.

Sales and marketing wouldn't be in Boise or Bangalore, and will be in-office as soon as there's a vaccine. WFH, and travel restrictions, are terrible for sales teams.
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  #162  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2020, 6:37 PM
Handro Handro is offline
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WFH, and travel restrictions, are terrible for sales teams.
So true. I know I don't feel comfortable closing unless I can track business on my nice big CRT monitor and power tie to let people know I mean business. Nothing like getting the day started by flipping the page on my Far Side calendar and setting my Walkman to classic oldies for some prospecting through the yellow pages! Can't replace that energy from home. Plus, I don't have space for all my filing cabinets in a home office, dunno how else I'd keep track of all my client files.

Maybe in the future things will change.
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  #163  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2020, 6:41 PM
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I’ve probably missed this earlier, but what do people make of Facebook’s plan to pay people less if they are working from home in less expensive locations? Slack has said the same. In other words, the savings that come from not needing expensive real estate in a major hub city accrue to the business, not the individual.

If you can’t move away from NYC or SF (or London or Paris or wherever) and make the same money with cheaper housing, then a lot fewer people will do it. And those high salaries have only really ever come to be because people needed them to cover high costs.

There is and will always be something lost when working remotely, and people are kidding themselves if they think otherwise.
My wife's company was remote (except for guys in field) for a few months and were just as productive when they were in the office proving there wasn't much lost. My skills are far more valued on the west coast but I don't want to move there so I welcome companies like FB recruiting more WFH employees. Houston has been a dead end for my industry and field and this sort of things opens up a lot of opportunities.
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  #164  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2020, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
My wife's company was remote (except for guys in field) for a few months and were just as productive when they were in the office proving there wasn't much lost. My skills are far more valued on the west coast but I don't want to move there so I welcome companies like FB recruiting more WFH employees. Houston has been a dead end for my industry and field and this sort of things opens up a lot of opportunities.
WFH productivity will really only be measurable over a longer period of time. One of the things I keep hearing from people, which makes intuitive sense, is that we are benefitting from the “capital” of relationships built when we were interacting face to face. You can stay close with a colleague or client you’ve known for years over Zoom, but might not be able to form new relationships that are as solid.
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  #165  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2020, 9:48 PM
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WFH productivity will really only be measurable over a longer period of time. One of the things I keep hearing from people, which makes intuitive sense, is that we are benefitting from the “capital” of relationships built when we were interacting face to face. You can stay close with a colleague or client you’ve known for years over Zoom, but might not be able to form new relationships that are as solid.
I agree. If I had a WFH job I would have to have some regular contact with the home office. I had a job for almost 10 years out of the UK and only met up with my colleagues a handful of times over that time and I found myself out of the loop. That was years ago when remote working was relatively new and they sucked at maintaining cohesion. Fortunately, my line of work doesn't involve a lot of client interaction so remote is more feasible for me.
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  #166  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 4:05 AM
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chris08876 chris08876 is offline
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I think it really depends on the type of work and also personality of the employee or person(s).

Some line of work, requires face to face to truly be effective and also... because of the job scope. Telemedicine has its benefits, but can't be replaced in terms of true effectiveness, unless one is faking a back injury or pretending they have ADHD for reasons, than it has positives or if one has a cut on the finger or some non-emergency issue.

With personalities, there are folks that can't stand office, and like to travel or be out. Somewhere new all the time, not the same location.

Remote working has its limitations, but also its positives. For folks in certain metros, it can also mean one can be further from the job center, radius wise, and save tremendously for family or other matters.

Another positive for the world is less cars on the roads. Easier rush hour commutes, which means less stress and minivans on the roads, which means the average lifespan for the nation improves.
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  #167  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 11:10 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
WFH productivity will really only be measurable over a longer period of time. One of the things I keep hearing from people, which makes intuitive sense, is that we are benefitting from the “capital” of relationships built when we were interacting face to face. You can stay close with a colleague or client you’ve known for years over Zoom, but might not be able to form new relationships that are as solid.
Exactly. WFH can be very productive over a few months, because you've built the relationships pre-WFH. It's easy to shepherd existing projects remotely, since you've already established the foundation.

But WFH would not be as productive absent that base, and won't be productive indefinitely. And hiring/onboarding is extremely difficult in most disciplines.
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  #168  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 11:13 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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So true. I know I don't feel comfortable closing unless I can track business on my nice big CRT monitor and power tie to let people know I mean business. Nothing like getting the day started by flipping the page on my Far Side calendar and setting my Walkman to classic oldies for some prospecting through the yellow pages! Can't replace that energy from home. Plus, I don't have space for all my filing cabinets in a home office, dunno how else I'd keep track of all my client files.

Maybe in the future things will change.
I'm sorry, but this is silly. The idea that valuing in-person relationship-building makes one stuck in the 1980's, is nonsense.

There will always be value to in-person relationship-building. It's extremely dystopian to believe that humans derive zero benefit from physical proximity to other humans.
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  #169  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 2:22 PM
Handro Handro is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I'm sorry, but this is silly. The idea that valuing in-person relationship-building makes one stuck in the 1980's, is nonsense.

There will always be value to in-person relationship-building. It's extremely dystopian to believe that humans derive zero benefit from physical proximity to other humans.
You're twisting the argument. Valuing in-person relationship building has nothing to do with working from home. The idea that one has to be at an office every day to perform sales or marketing tasks very much makes someone stuck in the 1980's. Having an open door office policy, team meetings, client visits, etc. still happen for remote workers. "Work from home" is just shorthand for "not required at an office desk", it doesn't mean "remain quarantined in locked house every day."
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  #170  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 2:54 PM
Investing In Chicago Investing In Chicago is offline
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WFH, and travel restrictions, are terrible for sales teams.
Agree on travel restrictions, but WFH? I lead a 60 person Sales Org at Oracle, where 100% of my team is remote. In fact, of Oracle's ~5,000 person field sales team, 100% are remote employees. Oracle doesn't want field sales in an office, even if they live in a city with an office.

My wife leads a 270 person sales team at Salesforce, with over half of the employees WFH.

WFH is the way to go with Sales*

*Entry level or lower tier sales probably will do better in an office
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  #171  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 7:47 PM
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Depending on the nature of the product/sale and where the customers are, many salespeople might be on the road most days anyway. In that case it really doesn’t make sense to have an office.
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  #172  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 9:51 PM
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The death of the city: Teleworking not the coronavirus, is making urban living obsole

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  #173  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 10:11 PM
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yuriandrade yuriandrade is offline
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Some arguments there are bizarre. They say date app also makes to help cities obsolote. In a big metropolis, we'll find dozens of potential candidates within few meters of distance. In a rural area or in an exurb, things get much more complicated.

Nobody really knows what will happen, so all those articles lecturing us about the post-Covid are annoying or just silly.
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  #174  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2020, 12:25 AM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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Politico runs a lot of dumb op-eds, I don't really bother with that site.

Not everyone works in an office, about 40% of jobs can be done from home, and that assumes absolutely everyone who can would, and things like education would be all online. I don't see that happening in totality.

And then work is only one part of life. You have wants(restaurants, activities, socialization) and needs (trips to get hair cut, to the dentist, etc) and tons of people employed in filling those needs. It just makes more economic sense for these things to be clustered, at least to a point*

I think one interesting thing to come out of online shopping is that the shipping cost becomes more transparent to the consumer. Amazon and others are bringing back the concept of the vertical, smaller footprint warehouse with fulfillment centers in big cities, and the bigger the city the more things you can get same-day delivered at low or no shipping cost. Any kind of on-demand hours/30 minute delivery service is obviously going to work better in a metropolitan area rather than a low density rural one unless someone invents a teleportation machine. How much delivery "tax" would you pay to live further away from a population center?

Self-driving cars will have the same effect. The current model of owning a car hides the real cost per mile aside from gas but a robot taxi would do the opposite and people would be sensitive to longer trips if they saw a higher dollar amount. Also I think the only reason we don't toll every inch of roadway is because of the complexity of putting up tollbooths and signage, but if a car's location can be tracked at all times and can be geofenced denying it access to a road without payment of a toll, then it becomes possible to toll everything. This of course then drips into getting things delivered too, no not only is the shipping cost noticed by the consumer who also notices the unavailability of 30 minute grocery delivery in some places, but the cost of the infrastructure that got it to you is also now factored in.

For a website full of urbanists who are so anal about how the suburbs are inefficient because they use more of everything - roads, pipes, wires, fire department response times, etc, I'm surprised how many embrace the idea of a rural super sprawl.

*Of course on the other hand, a city doesn't need to be very, very dense or very massive to the point of being uncomfortable and hyper-expensive. I think in the future, giant skyscrapers will become less common due to much less demand, and old 1970s boxy office towers in third-tier downtowns like Dayton, Ohio or Albuquerque would probably get demolished in mass at some point leaving skylines unrecognizable or nonexistent in smaller places. In developed countries there will be far fewer neighborhoods boasting population densities over 15-20k people per square mile, BUT I don't think cities would be abandoned, instead housing units would get larger and households get smaller in a gradual process that's already occurred in a lot of gentrified neighborhoods and in Europe. Lower quality apartments would get torn down to build townhouses with small yards, etc, though some very small apartment units could be useful to guarantee a home to all incl. the poor and mentally ill or handicapped, etc. Maybe that's what would save some buildings.

Last edited by llamaorama; Jul 29, 2020 at 12:40 AM.
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  #175  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2020, 1:02 AM
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My company decided to move my department into a rotating WFH shift (3 weeks home and 1 week office). I do clinical and regulatory checks for a pharmacy benefits manager, it's a job made for WFH.

Austin will be very interesting..... The Hill Country part was already sprawling and overcrowded.....
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