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  #61  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
It's because of the Civil Rights laws that bar certain forms of discrimination on the basis of race, gender, or disabilities. They track the data to measure compliance with laws and also to detect discriminatory practices.
That's certainly part of the reason they're still asking the questions, but apparently race was on the 1790 census.
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  #62  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 12:40 AM
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There were few blacks until WW II (a few did come at the end of the Civil War). During the war, since the military was hostile to blacks, they filled up the war production industries and plenty came west to work at Hunter's Point Naval Shipyard, turning Bayview Hunter's Point into one of San Francisco's 2 predominantly black neighborhoods. The other, the Western Addition, was bulldozed in a major way in the 1960s in the name of "urban renewal". That area previously had been a sort of west coast Harlem with an active jazz music scene but the residents were, like the rest of the city, mostly renters. In Bayview many owned their homes and, like everyone else, they have sold out as those homes became more valuable. The current black population still mostly lives in those 2 neighborhoods but many live in public housing that was built in both. Some in Bayview are still homeowners and didn't join their fellows in moving to the suburbs or Oakland. Our current Mayor proudly makes it a campaign issue that she was raised in the Western Addition "projects".
There weren't really a lot of black people anywhere outside of the south before WW2. But SF's black and Asian populations were roughly similar as recently as the 1970s (both groups were slightly larger than Hispanic at the time). It might be the only major U.S. city to see its black population fall so dramatically in the post-war era.

Put another way, San Francisco never really experienced white flight, although the city did experience population decline. Between 1980 and 2010 the city's white population declined by only 23k and the black population by almost 40k.
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  #63  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 1:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
That's certainly part of the reason they're still asking the questions, but apparently race was on the 1790 census.
Yeah, back then I believe it was because who was allowed to vote.
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  #64  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Yeah, back then I believe it was because who was allowed to vote.
And apparently, when the US was created, only men who were property owners could vote, and that included free blacks who owned property. It wasn't until slavery was abolished in 1865 in the US that conditions were created to discourage/prevent blacks from voting.

Reading more and more books about American history, I am totally learning about the myths of the creation of the US, and the history I was taught in school. For example, at least with the French Revolution, they initially wanted to create a classless society in principle, even though that's not what happened. But when the US was created with the "American Revolution," there wasn't even a pretense to want to create a classless society; the American Revolution was more about getting rid of the British monarchy's control, and keeping the American property owners' ruling class the status quo without British government interference.
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  #65  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 12:57 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Reading more and more books about American history, I am totally learning about the myths of the creation of the US, and the history I was taught in school. For example, at least with the French Revolution, they initially wanted to create a classless society in principle, even though that's not what happened. But when the US was created with the "American Revolution," there wasn't even a pretense to want to create a classless society; the American Revolution was more about getting rid of the British monarchy's control, and keeping the American property owners' ruling class the status quo without British government interference.
The French Revolution was a disaster in most respects and gave fuel (along with the Oliver Cromwell period) to Royalists in England in the 19th century. When a royal family is killed off and the aristocracy emasculated, bad actors eventually fill the power void. Miraculously, a democracy took root in the U.S. after our revolution and it has stuck around. Disastrously, the French revolution led to Napoleon and the Russian to Stalin.

The period when English descendants attempted to establish and operate and English-style aristocracy (but without a monarch) in the United States was pretty brief. The forces of industrialization were too intense and the sort-of Southern aristocracy fell less than 100 years after the revolution.

The "American Dream" was very real for the hundreds of thousands of Europeans who went from being peons in the old country to owners of their own farms in the United States in the 1800s. But this period was also very brief as the mechanization of farming in the 20th century meant the percentage of citizens working as farmers fell from something like 40% to 3% 1900-2000.
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  #66  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
And apparently, when the US was created, only men who were property owners could vote, and that included free blacks who owned property. It wasn't until slavery was abolished in 1865 in the US that conditions were created to discourage/prevent blacks from voting.
I don't think that first part is true. Black people weren't considered citizens of the United States until after the Civil War. Individual states could have had their own rules that enfranchised black men for non-federal elections, though. States had/have a lot of leeway on how they conduct elections.
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  #67  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 3:20 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I don't think that first part is true. Black people weren't considered citizens of the United States until after the Civil War. Individual states could have had their own rules that enfranchised black men for non-federal elections, though. States had/have a lot of leeway on how they conduct elections.
In states where black people were eligible to vote they could vote in all elections, whether federal, state, or local.

That said, my understanding is free blacks only had the right to vote at certain times in New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. And in the case of NJ and PA, it was actually revoked in 1807 and 1838 respectively. Meaning New York was the only state that had a continual history of black suffrage (for black men who owned property anyway).
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  #68  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
In states where black people were eligible to vote they could vote in all elections, whether federal, state, or local.

That said, my understanding is free blacks only had the right to vote at certain times in New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. And in the case of NJ and PA, it was actually revoked in 1807 and 1838 respectively. Meaning New York was the only state that had a continual history of black suffrage (for black men who owned property anyway).
Makes sense. Even today, national elections are really just 50 coordinated state elections.
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  #69  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Makes sense. Even today, national elections are really just 50 coordinated state elections.
The main reason why it's tough for a foreign actor to hack a U.S. election is because each of the 50 states does things in a different way. Different voting machines, different procedures, etc.

The land ownership requirement back in the 1700s was in the context of a citizenry that was largely illiterate. Even until the early 1900s there were symbols rather than written names on ballots to accommodate illiterate (and foreign-born) people. In my city there was a "Birdless Ballot League" dedicated to getting bird symbols off the ballots. The political machines used to more or less pay illiterate people to cast votes for this or that bird symbol.

Back then, well-meaning people thought if they could get the population reading and writing they would educate themselves. The sentiment was no different than the push in the 1990s to get "computers in the classroom". Now everybody has an encyclopedia in their pocket but people are no better informed, and arguably less so, then during the TV monoculture era 1950-2000.
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  #70  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 6:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
The main reason why it's tough for a foreign actor to hack a U.S. election is because each of the 50 states does things in a different way. Different voting machines, different procedures, etc.

The land ownership requirement back in the 1700s was in the context of a citizenry that was largely illiterate. Even until the early 1900s there were symbols rather than written names on ballots to accommodate illiterate (and foreign-born) people. In my city there was a "Birdless Ballot League" dedicated to getting bird symbols off the ballots. The political machines used to more or less pay illiterate people to cast votes for this or that bird symbol.

Back then, well-meaning people thought if they could get the population reading and writing they would educate themselves. The sentiment was no different than the push in the 1990s to get "computers in the classroom". Now everybody has an encyclopedia in their pocket but people are no better informed, and arguably less so, then during the TV monoculture era 1950-2000.
One of the weirdest things to read about is until the 20th century, there was no official ballot at all. You literally showed up in your polling place with a "ballot" (which could include anything at all written on a paper) and submitted it. This is why the party machines had so much power - they handed out bits of paper with the official "party list" on it.
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  #71  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
One of the weirdest things to read about is until the 20th century, there was no official ballot at all. You literally showed up in your polling place with a "ballot" (which could include anything at all written on a paper) and submitted it. This is why the party machines had so much power - they handed out bits of paper with the official "party list" on it.
The ward system made it all possible since a ward captain pampered the poor with payday loans, cooking and heating fuel, etc. In the 1800s and early 1900s the local political parties were basically organized crime. Instead of the city providing basic services, they did it themselves.
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  #72  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2021, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
Minneapolis looks the most integrated of any Midwest metros:

In the Twin Cities the poor, working class and lower middle class areas tend to be relatively integrated while the upper middle class and wealthy areas tend to be entirely white. The driver is that there is an enormous wage gap here between whites and non-whites. Working class Minneapolis is relatively integrated and multiracial, professional class Minneapolis tends to be the preserve of old stock German/Scandinavian Minnesotans. It creates a weird dynamic where the professional class here is often more insular than the working class.
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  #73  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 12:00 AM
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This map does not show all of the San Fernando Valley especially the southern end by Woodland Hills, Encino, Tarzana, Studio City etc. The southern end, and especially the west valley is very ethnic white, Jewish, Persians, and Armenians, a lot of Kim Kardashian types but not as rich, more like fake rich. Anyway the map shows a lot of the interior parts which are mostly Hispanic or Latino.

In my opinion from what I’ve seen living in both the San Fernando Valley and San Gabriel Valley, there are more Black people in the San Fernando Valley, we just don’t have any large black neighborhoods as most live among the other races. What we do lack is a huge Asian population in the San Fernando Valley. Also good Asian food is hard to fine over here, I truly believe the San Gabriel Valley has better Mexican and Asian food. Now if you’re looking for Armenian, Mediterranean and Persian cuisine than that everywhere here in the SFV.
My bad; I guess in my trying to fill the whole image with the SFV, I cut off the southern part. Here's the whole San Fernando Valley in the center, with Glendale in the lower right corner (I'm still at odds deciding whether Glendale is part of the SFV or not). And then there's Simi Valley in the upper left corner (which of course is not part of the SFV).



Yes, the southern edge of the SFV is white/ethnic white. For many decades, lots of TV industry and some film industry folk lived/live there too. Growing up, I had childhood friends who lived in Woodland Hills and Canoga Park. Canoga Park for a long time has had a big Hispanic population.

Definitely good esoteric Persian food can be found in the SFV. I've heard that there's good African food to be found in the SFV as well, and I have yet to try those. I've already had good Nigerian food in Inglewood; I somehow find Inglewood/the South Bay more convenient to drive to for me, but I definitely want to try some of the African places in the SFV.

Have you been to the Thai Buddhist Temple in North Hollywood? People rave about their Thai food. I've been to that temple, but I haven't had their food. I had good Thai food in a strip mall near the temple, though, but it's already been a number of years since I've been there, and I don't know if the pandemic has affected being able to visit the temple. Thai Town has really good food, and it's closer to me than North Hollywood, so that's why I don't really go into NoHo. Many years ago though, I had a friend who lived there, so I would go there often. There's also a Sri Lankan restaurant in Tarzana, which I've only been to once. I thought the food was good, but the better Sri Lankan place was a restaurant in La Crescenta, but it has closed. :/
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Last edited by sopas ej; Apr 29, 2021 at 2:09 PM.
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  #74  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 8:59 PM
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Are there any 250k + cities in the US with a majority white inner-city and a mixed outer-city/outskirts/suburbs like a lot of Western European cities?
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  #75  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 9:19 PM
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Are there any 250k + cities in the US with a majority white inner-city and a mixed outer-city/outskirts/suburbs like a lot of Western European cities?
San Francisco
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  #76  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 9:29 PM
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Are there any 250k + cities in the US with a majority white inner-city and a mixed outer-city/outskirts/suburbs like a lot of Western European cities?
New York, maybe... if you want to consider Manhattan as the "inner city".
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  #77  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 10:36 PM
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Core NYC would probably meet the criteria.

But I think most U.S. core areas are at least plurality white, and most U.S. "in-between core and suburb" areas are heavily nonwhite. It's just that NYC's core is comparatively gigantic and more European-like, without hard lines between CBD and neighborhood.

Also, most European suburbs are pretty white. Places like St. Denis are the exception, even in Paris region.
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  #78  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 11:48 PM
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These racial labels aren't even real, the way the US classifies people is bizarre.
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  #79  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 11:58 PM
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Also, most European suburbs are pretty white. Places like St. Denis are the exception, even in Paris region.
Myself, I don't know about that. Ethnic or religious statistics is not allowed by the Constitution of our Republic, and I think it's fine.

I live in Maisons-Alfort, a southeast suburb of Paris very close to it. We have the world's oldest and most prestigious college specialized in veterinarian medicine here in Maisons-Alfort, founded in 1765.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89...ire_d%27Alfort

It is also the most selective thing in the world. Like if you're not a passionate biologist as of age of 10, you won't be able to get in there. It is ultra elitist.

I usually work in Central Paris and bike whenever weather is easy, that's most often the case. I love biking. It is very good for me. That's how I spend my aggressiveness and physical energy.

Here in my neighborhood, we have Whites, Blacks, Jews, Muslims, Indians and their strange Hinduism that I can't really understand yet, a lot of Asians... Ivry-sur-Seine and the 13th arrondissement's China Town are nearby.
We have everything here in Maisons-Alfort, that's a moderately Conservative inner suburb of Paris in Val-de-Marne.

I am very pleased to see diversity in my suburb. To me, it means work, generosity and creativity.
Most locals are open-minded Catholics like myself, though.
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  #80  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2021, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Yes, the southern edge of the SFV is white/ethnic white. For many decades, lots of TV industry and some film industry folk lived/live there too. Growing up, I had childhood friends who lived in Woodland Hills and Canoga Park. Canoga Park for a long time has had a big Hispanic population.


This my little neighborhood, as you can see it's quite diverse. There are not a lot of latinos, or black people, but it's not uncommon to see both groups in the area. At the park, it's also not unusual to hear so many different accents. What's interesting is I hear a lot of the black people in the area with either a African, or a British accent. There are definitely a lot of foreign born neighbors, from Persians, Armenians, Russians, Jews, and Indians.

I live in Woodland Hills, but the section that known as the Warner Center. I guess you can say it's considered the downtown or business district of the west SFV. There are a few modern high-rises (offices, hotels), a movie theater and two malls, one outdoor and one enclosed but they are now building a new outdoor wing to it. It's a nice area not quite suburban, but sort of urban but not like downtown Glendale, or Burbank. You can definitely walk to get to most places in 10 minutes, from Costco, Traders Joes, Whole Foods, Sprouts, Target Ralphs, Starbucks, Coffee Bean, and all in between. I really like the neighborhood, although it's rather busy and everyone is in a rush around here, I get the feeling from many of the residents, they love this area. Oh btw we have access to the the Orange Line that runs though here, so you can get to North Hollywood or to the subway to get into downtown if you want to avoid the horrible traffic on the 101. The other option is the LADOT freeway express into downtown just a few blocks away.








Quote:
Have you been to the Thai Buddhist Temple in North Hollywood? People rave about their Thai food.
No I haven't been, and with the pandemic and also a 4 year old we haven't gone out much, but hopefully soon.

Last edited by ChrisLA; Apr 30, 2021 at 11:01 PM.
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