The 401 - Page 49

MolsonExport · #**961** Posted **Oct 5, 2021, 4:16 PM**

Highway 407 is the biggest rip off on the planet. Highway robbery, you might say.

It completely defeats the whole purpose of the goddamned highway.

thewave46 · #**962** Posted **Oct 5, 2021, 4:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Highway 407 is the biggest rip off on the planet. Highway robbery, you might say.

It completely defeats the whole purpose of the goddamned highway.

Yes. I haven't driven a kilometre on it yet.

I aspire to keep it that way.

Innsertnamehere · #**963** Posted **Oct 5, 2021, 5:39 PM**

I use it for recreational trips but can't justify it for commuting other than going around an occasional accident or something. I get a $60-80/month bill typically for weekend use in the summer months going up north, well worth the time and sanity savings.

The thing is a major rip-off if you don't have a transponder and get slammed with the camera charge and monthly account fee for a single trip, but with a transponder it's not as crazy. I can cut 40+ minutes avoiding the QEW through Oakville/Burlington with it for $12-15 in rush hour, or $7-10 on weekends.

the new part in Durham is also a lot cheaper, typically about half the price from my experience. $19 for 35 to the 404 on a summer weekend, dodging the hell-hole that is cottage traffic on the 401 through Durham? yes please. I also personally drive a very economical car (Civic) to offset these costs - the money I save on gas over driving a big SUV I instead spend on time saving tolls.

Djeffery · #**964** Posted **Oct 5, 2021, 10:25 PM**

My daughter lives in Ottawa now, and I have no issue taking the 407 at whatever it costs, to avoid the 401. When my parents had their place up in Bobcaygeon, we did the same thing. Unfortunately they sold it before the final stretch opened.

Loco101 · #**965** Posted **Oct 7, 2021, 3:59 AM**

We've been discussing widening of parts of the 401 but one thing I've noticed is that it is getting close to having paved shoulders for its entire length. I believe it has them from Windsor to just West of Brockville. But paving of shoulders has taken place on a number of sections between Brockville and the Quebec border even though there are some sections that may not have them for maybe another 4-7 years.

Dengler Avenue · #**966** Posted **Oct 7, 2021, 12:33 PM**

#tbt First wave of COVID absolutely sucked, but it was eye-opening to see people able to drive 120 kph on the 401 through Toronto at 3 pm on a workday.

Innsertnamehere · #**967** Posted **Nov 2, 2021, 4:03 PM**

heres a fun one:

https://www.politicstoday.news/queen...ypass-project/

The PC government is apparently polling to see if a possible tunnel or elevated widening of the 401 between the 427 and 404 would be popular or not.

Imagine!

Some people are speculating that Transurban could be lobbying to construct it - they are a major Australian firm who have built a ton of highway tunnels in Australia that are looking to expand into the North American toll road business.

Truenorth00 · #**968** Posted **Nov 3, 2021, 1:04 AM**

LOL. Just imagine those tolls. And I can't imagine 407ETR won't take the government to court over that.

sonysnob · #**969** Posted **Nov 3, 2021, 1:56 PM**

Some of Australia's road tunnels are incredible. Australians seem to love infrastructure. Many of their cities have really interesting metro networks as well as tremendously interesting highway networks.

Innsertnamehere · #**970** Posted **Nov 3, 2021, 2:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Some of Australia's road tunnels are incredible. Australians seem to love infrastructure. Many of their cities have really interesting metro networks as well as tremendously interesting highway networks.

Australia's underground freeway networks are more a factor of them not building freeways to service their cities until relatively recently. Most of their cities had no real freeway network until a decade or two ago, and are still building it out. Cities like Adelaide still don't have a contiguous freeway to cross the metro area, and there still is not a continuous freeway link between Sydney and Brisbane.

They've definitely got the underground highway game down to a science though, it's fairly unique globally, and I think also removes a lot of the normal negatives of urban highways. The physical highway infrastructure itself is relatively invisible, instead it's just vehicle storage that becomes problematic in denser areas.

As long as it's tolled, perhaps at a rate similar to 407 East, I'd be fine with a tunneled "super express" system. Perhaps make it free for trucks, or even make it trucks only to support freight movement and leave the surface highway for passengers.

Dengler Avenue · #**971** Posted **Nov 3, 2021, 2:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

LOL. Just imagine those tolls. And I can't imagine 407ETR won't take the government to court over that.

As for this (continuing off the commentary above), 407ETR actually gets busy enough during rush hours that the company may be fine with this. I mean, as long as everyone’s on board, sure why not.

sonysnob · #**972** Posted **Nov 3, 2021, 6:01 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Australia's underground freeway networks are more a factor of them not building freeways to service their cities until relatively recently. Most of their cities had no real freeway network until a decade or two ago, and are still building it out. Cities like Adelaide still don't have a contiguous freeway to cross the metro area, and there still is not a continuous freeway link between Sydney and Brisbane.

They've definitely got the underground highway game down to a science though, it's fairly unique globally, and I think also removes a lot of the normal negatives of urban highways. The physical highway infrastructure itself is relatively invisible, instead it's just vehicle storage that becomes problematic in denser areas.

As long as it's tolled, perhaps at a rate similar to 407 East, I'd be fine with a tunneled "super express" system. Perhaps make it free for trucks, or even make it trucks only to support freight movement and leave the surface highway for passengers.

I agree. I'd be fine with the idea of a tolled super express lane system as well. Dallas has a very extensive express toll network on many of it's freeways and I think they serve as a useful alternative to being forced to sit in traffic. I generally don't think Ontario should be following Dallas' transportation policy, but I've seen the benefit of express toll facilities first hand, and quite like the idea.

MolsonExport · #**973** Posted **Nov 9, 2021, 3:39 PM**

When I visited Oz (2003, 2013), the mass transit in places like Sydney and Melbourne were but a shadow of their counterparts in Toronto and Montreal. Slow, cumbersome, expensive. I know there has been much investment, but I wouldn't hold up Oz cities as shining examples of excellent public transit. They are not. It is very much a car culture, more so than Canada.

Innsertnamehere · #**974** Posted **Nov 9, 2021, 6:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

When I visited Oz (2003, 2013), the mass transit in places like Sydney and Melbourne were but a shadow of their counterparts in Toronto and Montreal. Slow, cumbersome, expensive. I know there has been much investment, but I wouldn't hold up Oz cities as shining examples of excellent public transit. They are not. It is very much a car culture, more so than Canada.

Their modal shares are largely similar, though yea, slightly higher. Melbourne and Sydney have automotive modal shares of 76% and 67%, compared to Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver modal shares of 68%, 70%, and 69%.

thewave46 · #**975** Posted **Nov 9, 2021, 7:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

When I visited Oz (2003, 2013), the mass transit in places like Sydney and Melbourne were but a shadow of their counterparts in Toronto and Montreal. Slow, cumbersome, expensive. I know there has been much investment, but I wouldn't hold up Oz cities as shining examples of excellent public transit. They are not. It is very much a car culture, more so than Canada.

I've always been kind of confused about rail transit in Australia.

Sydney opened its first Metro system (in the classic definition) in 2019, but the had Sydney Trains (Akin to GO? A weird metro/suburban hybrid?) operating previously.

tayser · #**976** Posted **Nov 10, 2021, 6:47 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46

I've always been kind of confused about rail transit in Australia.

Sydney opened its first Metro system (in the classic definition) in 2019, but the had Sydney Trains (Akin to GO? A weird metro/suburban hybrid?) operating previously.

Classic definition depends on who you are and where you are.

Australian rail networks cover suburbs and the inner-city: they're owned and operated by state governments, not local councils (and therefore they reach further than comparative Canadian systems).

Sydney Metro might be called a 'metro' and the brand name of the operator in Melbourne might be Melbourne 'metro' but don't get caught up in over categorisation and ultimately what is a brand name.

Melbourne trains are pound for pound about the same size as Toronto subway trains (TTC subway trains will probably fit more people due to internal config) but they'll run a lot further out of the central area than what the TTC does. Ditto for Montreal and Vancouver. Sydney's DDs have even greater capacities and are generally ~20m longer than Melbourne (and therefore TTC trains).

Our systems don't fit neat subway/metro and regional/commuter rail categories - it's pointless to fixate on this deliniation that happens in North America and Europe. Sydney 'metro' - it's first line, is just like any other Australian line, it reaches into the outer/fringe suburbs of Sydney and will eventually pass through the middle of Sydney and out the other end. It's just an independent driverless system, but it does the same job as all other conventional lines in Sydney.

This is the same thing with Melbourne's SRL which is getting underway this/early next year - a driverless system that'll provide cross-town paths intersecting with the radial network that already exists.

Building railways into sprawl / fringe suburbs is viewed by government as a good idea and the typical 'there's not enough people for a rail service' is pretty much ignored (all Melbourne growth areas/future sprawl areas generally have track in the ground at the moment and the state government will eventually upgrade and electrify those areas over time - there are several projects on the cards for this).

The Melbourne Metro Tunnel project (again, dont fixate on the branding) is akin to what Paris did with its RER tunnels in the 70s and 80s: existing surface lines get a cross-town path and some new stations, ultimately diverting a track pair away from the existing network and providing capacity where those services have been diverted. Where Paris took different mainline services, connected them and rebranded like (like RER A, RER B etc), we're probably heading in the same direction because this project will be the first sectorisation and de-coupling from the existing network.

Sydney's Metro West project basically runs parallel to a rail corridor that already has 2 to 3 track pairs, but will link more suburbs and provide a faster journey. Melbourne's removing at least 85 of around 170 level crossings at the moment which has seen about 20 stations rebuilt and they've completed 50 removals so far.

Post 2025, we'll start to see Melbourne lines probably start operating 10-minute headways as base frequency when Melbourne Metro tunnel opens (by 2029 the Melbourne Airport link will be one western branch plus another western branch running through the city to two different south-eastern branches giving 5 minute frequency across about 40km of the city and 10 minute frequency to all the outer growth / fringe areas).

Typical Melbourne line (Glen Waverley):