Your favorite small urban cities in North America?

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by eschaton

A lot of the southern cities mentioned have a decent downtown area, but in a lot of ways - like smaller cities in the midwest/west - they feel like "fake cities."

What I mean by a "fake city" is something which on the sidewalk can give the impression of a few blocks of busy pedestrian traffic. However, just out of sight, perhaps on the back side of the block, perhaps a few blocks away, there is an ocean of surface parking lots. There are very few actual residents within walking distance. The nearest intact residential blocks could be some distance away, and they're made up of low-density single-family housing. Sometimes there's not even a substantial job concentration in the downtown area. People drive there, park, and then walk around - which makes it not really fundamentally different from a suburban "lifestyle center".

Now, things are getting better here. A lot of smaller cities are converting old midrises to residential, and even building new apartments. Hotels with the proper urban form right in town make a difference too. But even when this is dealt with, the rapid transition from a mixed-use commercial district with streetwalls to residential neighborhoods with streetcar suburban density at best (single-family detached homes fairly widely spaced on lots) is very jarring.

you realize of course, there used to be structures on those parking lots? in fact those are the types of places that were exactly what you are looking for and were so for the longest time. so howsabout lets applaud their efforts to come back instead of slag them for their past mistakes.

[edale]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Another non-vibrant, but interesting area are the different little boroughs of the coal region. You have all these mini-urban areas, like Manahoy City, Shenandoah, and Mt. Carmel. They're all spaced close together, like no one of them is more than a 15-minute drive from the next. Their residential vernacular is basically all wood rowhouses. And because the bottom fell out for NEPA coal in the early 20th century, they completely missed the boat on suburbanization, so it goes straight from rowhouse to wilderness. They are as dead as anything can be economically (not even attracting Latino migrants like places like Allentown and Hazleton) but kinda fantasize about them getting taken over by artists who want dirt cheap urban living and starting a local renaissance.

That is pretty interesting. It's like an urban neighborhood surrounded by...nothing. I randomly dropped into a street in Shenandoah, and was not expecting to see a synagogue!

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8191...7i13312!8i6656

[JManc]

Brattleboro, VT (almost moved here after I left NH)



Bennington, VT



...I love me some Vermont.

[dc_denizen]

re: Kingston, insufferable article

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/r...residents.html

Kingston, a small city in upstate New York, became my home four and a half years ago. Seeking space, affordability, green, and quiet, my husband and I traded Brooklyn for this city of 23,000. Unwittingly, we joined a slow-drip migration north.

Since the arrival of coronavirus, though, what had been a steadily paced increase in newcomers has become a barrage, with our adopted hometown experiencing an unprecedented and not entirely welcome real estate boom.

of course, they moved from brooklyn. of course, the guy is a "writer"

I was newly pregnant with twins when we purchased our house on a tree-lined block of Kingston. We were drawn to the town’s smallness, walkability, its racial diversity (in the overwhelmingly white Hudson Valley, Kingston is nearly 70 percent white, the rest an amalgam of Black, Latino, Asian, Indigenous American and other non-white groups), and its natural surroundings: mountains, farms, woodlands, and the majestic Hudson River. With my husband, a chef, newly employed by the Phoenicia Diner, a popular upstate restaurant, we finally had the push to leave the city, a move I’d been impatient to make for years.

obligatory genuflection towards "diversity" and implicit dig at boring white people (bet they don't hang out in the "diverse" neighborhoods though.

The first day we drove upstate to house hunt, I fell for an 1850 Victorian that had been sitting on the market, uninhabited, for nearly a year and a half. I ignored the dust and the rotting back deck, focusing, instead, on the 13-foot ceilings, the light pouring in despite the wintry clouds, and the many built-in closets. We made an offer immediately, and went into contract for more than $20,000 below the asking price of $339,000.

good for them though

We were freelance writers and textile artists, D.J.s and furniture makers, jewelers, photographers, acupuncturists and musicians. (We were nearly all white, too.) We’d entered adulthood via the gig economy. This left many of us financially unstable, but provided the professional flexibility to live beyond daily commuting distance of the city. We felt rich in community, if not in cash.

There was more to Kingston, too: a run-down but well utilized Y.M.C.A.; a charming public library situated in the midst of one of the city’s poorer neighborhoods; a strong, minority-led social justice community; and a historically underfunded but remarkably diverse public school system.

These were facets of the city that some newcomers felt compelled to recognize and participate in, while others avoided them wholesale. Many of our transplant peers, we soon learned, sent their children to private schools in neighboring towns, reasoning that they could afford it since they were saving so much on living expenses. The cultural and economic chasm was ever-present, though rarely explicitly acknowledged.

*GAG*!

While we’ve watched the financial stability of our peers crumble, we have seen our little city become the receiving end of a startlingly rapid exodus of people looking to escape New York City. The effect is made clear by the numbers: this spring, Kingston had become one of the top 10 ZIP codes in the country for address changes and mail forwarding since the beginning of the shutdown.

Most of us who moved a few years ago voluntarily divorced ourselves from the city’s higher salaries in order to live a slower, more affordable life. But now, with so many white collar workers geographically liberated by telecommuting, their city paychecks — and with them, increased buying power — have become movable, too.

In many neighborhoods, prices on comparable listings have more than doubled since we moved four years ago. On our block, we’ve watched two dated homes, both with postage-stamp yards, list for half a million dollars and then go into bidding wars.

upstate, with its grand urban spaces and cheapness, stands to gain from covid and the incompetence of de Blasio

[Don't Be That Guy]

Originally Posted by eschaton

What I mean by a "fake city" is something which on the sidewalk can give the impression of a few blocks of busy pedestrian traffic. However, just out of sight, perhaps on the back side of the block, perhaps a few blocks away, there is an ocean of surface parking lots. There are very few actual residents within walking distance. The nearest intact residential blocks could be some distance away, and they're made up of low-density single-family housing. Sometimes there's not even a substantial job concentration in the downtown area. People drive there, park, and then walk around - which makes it not really fundamentally different from a suburban "lifestyle center".

Fair point. That's true for a lot of post WWII growth cities. However, I was in Asheville, NC and Greenville, SC earlier this year and there were more mid/high-density multi-story residential and commercial projects and more tower cranes in Greenville's downtown than in all of the city of Pittsburgh. Plus, they had closed streets and sidewalk tables everywhere for outdoor dining, something that we are still struggling with here.

Anyway, small cities in cities typically have way better bones for a more authentic urban experience, many just don't have the population growth and wealth,and forward thinking leadership if we're being honest, to make themselves attractive. For some reason, New York state has a better collection of vibrant small towns cities than PA despite having worse weather and stagnant population growth.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

you realize of course, there used to be structures on those parking lots? in fact those are the types of places that were exactly what you are looking for and were so for the longest time. so howsabout lets applaud their efforts to come back instead of slag them for their past mistakes.

Yes, I know. It's interesting sometimes to look at the aerials of these cities and realize the urban core used to be 50%-75% larger than it is today. It's actually kinda heartbreaking in some cases where aerial views from the 30s or whatever exist, and you can see how many buildings were knocked down for the parking lots.

We're obviously making strides now with preservation and infill. However, the lack of any intermediate density neighborhoods dominated by "missing middle" units (rowhouses, triple-deckers, two-flats, etc) is really notable.

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

Anyway, small cities in cities typically have way better bones for a more authentic urban experience, many just don't have the population growth and wealth,and forward thinking leadership if we're being honest, to make themselves attractive. For some reason, New York state has a better collection of vibrant small towns cities than PA despite having worse weather and stagnant population growth.

I feel like in some ways the smallest cities have an advantage, in that even if some buildings were knocked down by parking, it's usually a small enough amount of parking that there are still intact residential neighborhoods a block or two from the commercial core. In contrast, once a city passes 100,000 or so there's enough parking (or general "dead space" used for institutional purposes) that it's more of an uncomfortably long walk into the CBD area.

New York's small cities are better because of New York city. Lots of weekenders, early-middle age folks looking for a slower pace, even lower-income folks moving northward. That dynamic doesn't exist in PA. Even South/Central PA gets more transplants from NYC (and Baltimore, in the case of York) than Philadelphia.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

For some reason, New York state has a better collection of vibrant small towns cities than PA despite having worse weather and stagnant population growth.

NYS and PA have the same weather and same stagnant population growth.

And I don't get what weather has to do with whether a small town is vibrant.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by edale

That is pretty interesting. It's like an urban neighborhood surrounded by...nothing. I randomly dropped into a street in Shenandoah, and was not expecting to see a synagogue!

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8191...7i13312!8i6656

I don't think that's a legacy synagogue. Looks like a house converted into a synagogue in recent years.

I would guess Lubavitchers from Crown Heights, Brooklyn. They have random settlements in the most unexpected places.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by eschaton

New York's small cities are better because of New York city.

Perhaps those along 87 in the Hudson Valley but further upstate, not so much. The nice intact ones tend to be touristy, college towns and/ or old money.

PA ravaged much of their landscape with mining where as New York hasn't. PA also allows fracking, NY doesn't.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by JManc

Perhaps those along 87 in the Hudson Valley but further upstate, not so much. The nice intact ones tend to be touristy, college towns and/ or old money.

But in general, the further out you get from NYC, the worse off the small cities are. Western New York and the Southern Tier are shrinking as fast as anywhere in rural PA.

Originally Posted by JManc

PA ravaged much of their landscape with mining where as New York hasn't.

Admittedly true, though the areas of PA with a lot of mining and the areas of PA with small cities don't really align much (outside of the Wyoming Valley)

Originally Posted by JManc

PA also allows fracking, NY doesn't.

Fracking as a process is way, way too new to have played a major role.

[dc_denizen]

Topeka, Kansas

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0501...7i16384!8i8192

for a city of 150k, definitely punches above its weight.

Also Lawrence

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9703...7i16384!8i8192

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

For some reason, New York state has a better collection of vibrant small towns cities than PA despite having worse weather and stagnant population growth.

New York State has MORE small cities/towns by function of simply a larger state population, but their condition in all honesty isn't any notably better than PA, on average. If anything, Pennsylvania balances its investments/economic development focus between urban and rural far more than NYC uber-dominated New York State.

Admittedly Upstate has more of a tourist draw than rural PA, so there's more metro NY money flowing around those parts. But tourist towns are certainly aren't the norm. The economic conditions of New York and Pennsylvania are remarkably similar overall.

Originally Posted by JManc

Perhaps those along 87 in the Hudson Valley but further upstate, not so much. The nice intact ones tend to be touristy, college towns and/ or old money.

PA ravaged much of their landscape with mining where as New York hasn't. PA also allows fracking, NY doesn't.

"Ravaged" is quite an exaggeration. And fracking is all but dying off, before it ever truly "boomed." It was a flash in the pan, fools gold industry that will only operate very minimally moving forward.

And I acknowledge (and hate) the impacts that resource extraction has had on Pennsylvania as much as the next person, but the many media articles and references to the industry are absurdly exaggerated. In the vast majority of Pennsylvania, you'd never even know it has or had a mining or fracking industry.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

"Ravaged" is quite an exaggeration. And fracking is all but dying off, before it ever truly "boomed." It was a flash in the pan, fools gold industry that will only operate very minimally moving forward.

oh really? Producing as much gas as Texas is "minimal"?

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Topeka, Kansas

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0501...7i16384!8i8192

for a city of 150k, definitely punches above its weight.

Also Lawrence

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9703...7i16384!8i8192

lawrence for sure. best city in kansas. topeka was a punchline when i lived out there but never really explored it.

leavenworth has an ok downtown and is a true river city in a very not river city state but i spent more time driving cars LOADED with smirnoff ice in the trunk onto leavenworth, drinking until noon in historic officers housing with my friends.

kansas is weird as fuck and i kind of like it.

[chris08876]

Parts of Hudson County are stunning. Small, dense cities. Often not thought about when compared to its big brother across the river.

Went to Weehawken NJ this morning. Has some stunning gems.

1 Hamilton Avenue. This is also on sale btw on Zillow at the moment.



1 Hamilton Ave (Weehawken NJ) -08-21-2020 by Christopher Estevez, on Flickr

[Omaharocks]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

lawrence for sure. best city in kansas. topeka was a punchline when i lived out there but never really explored it.

leavenworth has an ok downtown and is a true river city in a very not river city state but i spent more time driving cars LOADED with smirnoff ice in the trunk onto leavenworth, drinking until noon in historic officers housing with my friends.

kansas is weird as fuck and i kind of like it.

Yeah, I don't think Topeka deserves a spot on this list, it's one of the least vibrant small towns in the U.S., though there are some nice cultural attributes and some decent bones.

I wish the midwest did better in this category than it does. There are very nice college towns, but not really any cities of a similar size that can compete with the Portlands (Maine) or Ashevilles. Duluth, Traverse City and a few others may get close, but just haven't seen the infill or investment that small cities have in other regions.

I would disagree that the west does small cities well, though it does do small towns (sub 40k) as well as any other region. I do like Flagstaff and Santa Fe.

[dc_denizen]

re topeka

I think this looks more vibrant/better kept up than say, Fort Wayne or Flint or Canton or Youngstown

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0488...7i16384!8i8192

Wichita too

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6860...7i16384!8i8192

Manhattan, KS

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1793...7i16384!8i8192

Kansas - home of unheralded urban gems?

[dc_denizen]

Springfield, Mo

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2089...7i16384!8i8192

Omaha

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2565...7i16384!8i8192

Thesis: NE/MO/KS/IA small cities seem better maintained and more thriving than IN/MI/OH/IL small cities (likely due to less prevalent racial conflict legacy...white flight was sort of desultory)

Pound for pound, NE/MO/KS/IA also seems to have TX beat.

Texas small towns are shockingly non-vibrant (Lubbock, Midland, Odessa).

Here's downtown Lubbock - not impressed

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5844...7i16384!8i8192

compare to Lincoln, NE

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8136...7i16384!8i8192

What gives, why does Nebraska and Kansas look more lively than TX?

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

re topeka

I think this looks more vibrant/better kept up than say, Fort Wayne or Flint or Canton or Youngstown

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0488...7i16384!8i8192

Wichita too

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6860...7i16384!8i8192

Kansas - home of unheralded urban gems?

lol, maybe. manhattan isn’t bad either (although certainly is smaller and plays second fiddle to lawrence) and is in an iconic Dances with Wolves type landscape where you really feel as if you’ve broken through the midwest into the west.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Springfield, Mo

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2089...7i16384!8i8192

Omaha

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2565...7i16384!8i8192

Thesis: NE/MO/KS/IA small cities seem better maintained and more thriving than IN/MI/OH/IL small cities (likely due to less prevalent racial conflict legacy...white flight was sort of desultory)

all they need to do is tear down the parking garages, add 4-story residential to the remaining empty land/parking lots.

springfield is a strange case. its the first city driving southwest that really starts to feel texas-y on the outskirts, but has this solid core thats hard to pin down. i used to stop for the night in downtown springfield driving to texas and SXSW and check out bands (often also heading to texas), bar hop, etc. if i recall the downtown street-level bones are some of the best between there and austin.

i really thought it was going to become more of a sunbelt metropolis than it has...it’s sort of halfway there. not sure what the growth is like these days.