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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Southfield is a weird suburb, especially now that it's older and somewhat less desirable.

I wonder if people in the 1980's really thought that Southfield would replace downtown Detroit as the region's core.
They thought they were building the future. Southfield is probably the most egregious example in Metro Detroit, but not the only one. Here's a lowrise office building erected on the edge of a sfh neighborhood in Livonia: https://goo.gl/maps/wJeC8s5RUmKMSpNq6
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by C. View Post
These photos are absolutely ridiculous. Extreme densities on arterial roads surrounded by a sea of single-family homes. Toronto and the surrounding areas really needs to start exploring mid-rises in those exclusive single-family neighborhoods.
Good luck with organic infill in that disjointed urban fabric of cul-de-sacs and pocket subdivisions. The street layout itself is intrinsically anti-urban, like something you see on the outskirts of a sunbelt metro.
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
The numbers must all be pretty close in North America because Houston ranked #3 in raw population growth among US metro areas last year at 91,000.

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/...on-growth.html
My understanding is that Toronto is more or less just in front of Dallas, which is the fasted in the US.

The different definitions of metro areas makes direct comparisons challenging, but the Toronto CMA grew by 107,000 on average over the last 4 years, and when you add the Oshawa and Hamilton CMAs which more closely aligns with how US metros are calculated, it squeezes in front of dallas.
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
My understanding is that Toronto is more or less just in front of Dallas, which is the fasted in the US.

The different definitions of metro areas makes direct comparisons challenging, but the Toronto CMA grew by 107,000 on average over the last 4 years, and when you add the Oshawa and Hamilton CMAs which more closely aligns with how US metros are calculated, it squeezes in front of dallas.
As a native Houstonian it is my absolute duty to perpetuate the intra-state rivalry and remind you that it's "Dallas-Fort Worth" - DFW - not "Dallas." Without Fort Worth, Dallas would be Boston. Only not nearly as pretty.

(The previous comment is meant as a joke... but not really, because... well... we're talking about Dallas.)
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 3:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
The numbers must all be pretty close in North America because Houston ranked #3 in raw population growth among US metro areas last year at 91,000.

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/...on-growth.html
That article is a bit inaccurate and outdated. Dallas was first and Houston was third, but Phoenix was not second. Dallas had the largest raw growth (1.27M) followed closely by New York (1.243M) and Houston (1.201M). No other U.S. metro area grew by over 1M between 2010 and 2020. Phoenix grew by a respectable 650k, but the Atlanta (803k) and Washington (735k) metro areas added more people.
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
As a native Houstonian it is my absolute duty to perpetuate the intra-state rivalry and remind you that it's "Dallas-Fort Worth" - DFW - not "Dallas." Without Fort Worth, Dallas would be Boston. Only not nearly as pretty.

(The previous comment is meant as a joke... but not really, because... well... we're talking about Dallas.)
Houston over Dallas any day of the week. Fort Worth at least has a Western Texas charm.
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  #67  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
That article is a bit inaccurate and outdated. Dallas was first and Houston was third, but Phoenix was not second. Dallas had the largest raw growth (1.27M) followed closely by New York (1.243M) and Houston (1.201M).
The article was just considering growth during one year: 2019-20.
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  #68  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
The article was just considering growth during one year: 2019-20.
Perhaps, but it was based on flawed estimates. Northern cities were substantially undercounted in the ACS estimates, which was confirmed by the actual census results. It's unlikely that Phoenix was the second fastest growing metro in 2019-2020.
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  #69  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Perhaps, but it was based on flawed estimates. Northern cities were substantially undercounted in the ACS estimates,
particularly new york, both the city and MSA.

the CB swung and missed HARD on that one.

and we're not talking about a rounding error here, but many hundreds of thousands of people their estimates simply missed.

flawed methodology.
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  #70  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 4:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Every city that has rapid growth ends up with a dense suburb beyond a not-dense suburb.

If this is where google earth is showing me it is, I'm seeing a big fat golf course within walking distance of a subway station: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Yo...!4d-79.3940946

So let's tear down the houses but keep the golf course?

In my city, I was screamed at for suggesting the redevelopment of a city-owned golf course that sits between two transit-rich avenues because it's a "historically black golf course". I had no idea because I don't play golf. The (white) people then demanded that various country clubs be redeveloped. Well those aren't on transit-oriented avenues and they're privately owned, I said.

That's why I don't go to public meetings. The people are insane.
Most of that golf course is on a flood plain I think, and therefore not suitable for redevelopment. After Hurricane Hazel killed a few dozen people in Ontario due to flash flooding of houses on flood plains, development of housing on such sites has been banned.

There are some golf courses being redeveloped, at least partially, such as Angus Glen in Markham and Streetsville Glen in Brampton, but also some redevelopment proposals that get canceled due to push back from locals (ex Glen Abbey).
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  #71  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
I actually agree with you that SFHs and highrises don't tend to oppose one another. In fact, when most of the residential land is zoned exclusively for SFHs, it promotes highrises because that's the only way to cram enough density into the limited remaining land. And as a result, Toronto has an abundance of highrise residential buildings. I disagree that this is a good thing however, because this does NOT promote a diversity of housing and in fact discourages it. The areas zoned for detached housing are forced to remain so, and the areas that are allowed to density are compelled to have large highrises with these being increasingly the only options. Not surprisingly, we have a growing issue of a missing middle, something that the About Here channel explores in the context of Vancouver, but is also equally applicable to Toronto.

Video Link


Many experts in the field of planning have noted that highrises are not the ideal form of residential housing. The best-selling book Happy City points to studies showing that people living in units with a stronger connection to the ground tend to be happier on average than those living in towers, with several examples including the residents of a tower and townhouse project in Yaletown. Obviously this may not apply to everyone since people are all unique individuals so we can really only discuss the issue in terms of averages. But preserving SFHs is not a sustainable goal because you either have a situation of:

A) Unlimited sprawl caused by continually adding the necessary land to accommodate enough new detached houses to keep up with demand for homes on the ground, or

B) A finite number of detached houses that become increasingly expensive and rare as a proportion without any ability to increase supply. Therefore as the city grows, an ever smaller percentage of people can live in one.

This does not allow for a diversity of housing types because as the population grows, if you want to prevent sprawl you can't grow the SFH supply along with the population so newcomers, unless they're wealthy, generally don't have a choice between a detached home or a highrise unit. That is not a diversity of options. It's just preferential treatment for those who are wealthy or lucky enough to already have a detached home.

A mixture of housing that includes townhouses, lowrise apartment, midrise apartment, and highrises apartment is far more diverse than a binary of just SFHs and highrise. Yet trying to preserve the maximum number of SFHs means you don't have the room for any of those medium-density options. I would love to see a good number of SFH areas replaced with medium density because honestly, SFH areas just house too few people relative to the amount of land they occupy to be beneficial to a growing and expensive city. Unless they're historic or otherwise notable, detached houses don't help anyone other than the increasingly small proportion of people who can afford them. They just make a city less vibrant, less interesting, and less efficient. And if there's limits on sprawl, also less affordable.
You bring up some good points as usual. I have to say I love the low-rise apartment complexes all over Montreal. Those winding stairs, no need for elevators (less electricity). I wish we had that here in Toronto too. I actually prefer that "middle ground" over binary high-rise apartment neighbourhoods vs. detached house neighbhourhoods. But maybe that's just my personal preference, right?

But the Vancouver style isn't actually binary SFH vs. high-rises, are they? It's actually defined by skinny high-rises with low-rise and mid-rise podiums. These Vancouver style high-rise developments also result in low-rise and mid-rise streetscapes. The percentage of the streetwall even along a major road might actually more low-rise and mid-rise than high-rise. It's rarely ever a pure high-rise streetscape. That's Vancouver's style and now it's Toronto's style as well.

Maybe it's true that more townhouses could have been built all over the Toronto area. My mom bought a freehold townhouse, and it gives her a lot of the experience of a detached house. I've wondered why so few were built in the Toronto. Maybe more freehold townhouses and semi-detached houses could have been built all over the place, not just near major arterials. But you have to consider also that this isn't suburban Atlanta. These detached houses are already very tightly packed together, especially in recent years. How much density would you gain from demolishing an entire SFH neighbourhood and replacing it with townhouses or low-rise apartments, and how much would that impact the overall density of the Toronto area, I think not much.

And I will say again: in terms of efficient land use, the SFHs aren't even close to the number one problem right now, either here or anywhere else in Canada and US. The main problem is commercial land. Malls. Strip malls and plazas. Big box. Power centres. Office parks. And then there's the commuter rail stations too. All those parking lots need to be redeveloped and they are already located along major streets. Getting rid of parking lots should be the main focus of all cities right now, not getting rid of detached houses on side streets.

Imagine if all the parking lots that dominate these suburbs finally get redeveloped, would all those big driveways of all those detached houses still be as desirable? One step at a time. Get people onto transit, reduce the demand for parking, get rid of parking lots and garages, and then we can start looking at all the big, empty and underutilized driveways of all those detached houses.

We need to think in terms of building a city, not destroying a city. It's about gradually shifting the culture, not completely changing it suddenly into something foreign. It's just not the right time in Toronto to concentrate on demolishing neighbourhoods of SFHs. We are just not at that step yet.

Parking. THAT is the number one barrier to urbanity. You can see it in so many US downtowns like OKC where transit is nonexistent. I see every day here in Mississauga, how much parking limits density and development. Too many parking lots and garages. Not enough on-street parking. Not enough buses. Not enough trains. If you guys want to increase density, if you want to make housing affordable, if you more high-rise and mid-rise redevelopments, the parking is really what you should be focusing on, not the single family homes. And the solution isn't zoning, it's investing in transit. Those ugly SFH streetscapes you guys see in my photos aren't rooted in a lack of medium and high density zoning, they are rooted in a lack of public transit.
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  #72  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jd3189 View Post
I have only seen these scenes in barrier islands in South Florida. Very weird to see these types of developments anywhere else, not even in New York.

And what I mean is that single family homes coexisting that closely with high rises in a place that’s not even the city center.
Pretty common in West LA, actually.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0638...7i16384!8i8192


https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0617...7i13312!8i6656


https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0623...7i16384!8i8192

Last edited by edale; Nov 2, 2021 at 10:11 PM.
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  #73  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 7:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
You bring up some good points as usual. I have to say I love the low-rise apartment complexes all over Montreal. Those winding stairs, no need for elevators (less electricity). I wish we had that here in Toronto too. I actually prefer that "middle ground" over binary high-rise apartment neighbourhoods vs. detached house neighbhourhoods. But maybe that's just my personal preference, right?

But the Vancouver style isn't actually binary SFH vs. high-rises, are they? It's actually defined by skinny high-rises with low-rise and mid-rise podiums. These Vancouver style high-rise developments also result in low-rise and mid-rise streetscapes. The percentage of the streetwall even along a major road might actually more low-rise and mid-rise than high-rise. It's rarely ever a pure high-rise streetscape. That's Vancouver's style and now it's Toronto's style as well.

Maybe it's true that more townhouses could have been built all over the Toronto area. My mom bought a freehold townhouse, and it gives her a lot of the experience of a detached house. I've wondered why so few were built in the Toronto. Maybe more freehold townhouses and semi-detached houses could have been built all over the place, not just near major arterials. But you have to consider also that this isn't suburban Atlanta. These detached houses are already very tightly packed together, especially in recent years. How much density would you gain from demolishing an entire SFH neighbourhood and replacing it with townhouses or low-rise apartments, and how much would that impact the overall density of the Toronto area, I think not much.

And I will say again: in terms of efficient land use, the SFHs aren't even close to the number one problem right now, either here or anywhere else in Canada and US. The main problem is commercial land. Malls. Strip malls and plazas. Big box. Power centres. Office parks. And then there's the commuter rail stations too. All those parking lots need to be redeveloped and they are already located along major streets. Getting rid of parking lots should be the main focus of all cities right now, not getting rid of detached houses on side streets.

Imagine if all the parking lots that dominate these suburbs finally get redeveloped, would all those big driveways of all those detached houses still be as desirable? One step at a time. Get people onto transit, reduce the demand for parking, get rid of parking lots and garages, and then we can start looking at all the big, empty and underutilized driveways of all those detached houses.

We need to think in terms of building a city, not destroying a city. It's about gradually shifting the culture, not completely changing it suddenly into something foreign. It's just not the right time in Toronto to concentrate on demolishing neighbourhoods of SFHs. We are just not at that step yet.

Parking. THAT is the number one barrier to urbanity. You can see it in so many US downtowns like OKC where transit is nonexistent. I see every day here in Mississauga, how much parking limits density and development. Too many parking lots and garages. Not enough on-street parking. Not enough buses. Not enough trains. If you guys want to increase density, if you want to make housing affordable, if you more high-rise and mid-rise redevelopments, the parking is really what you should be focusing on, not the single family homes. And the solution isn't zoning, it's investing in transit. Those ugly SFH streetscapes you guys see in my photos aren't rooted in a lack of medium and high density zoning, they are rooted in a lack of public transit.
You say you wonder why Toronto hasn't built a lot of missing middle housing, when it's the entire point of this thread, ie the city has made it illegal by zoning most of the city for single family housing.
The only way we will getting missing middle housing is by removing exclusive single family zones and let those properties be redeveloped.
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  #74  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 7:20 PM
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If the rate of growth is the 'problem' here, and almost all of Canada's growth is due to immigration, it seems that a relatively simple solution would be to limit immigration for a period of time to allow for the housing market to come into balance with demand. Perhaps Canada could be more prescriptive about where refugees and immigrants may settle-- pushing them into cities with capacity for growth like (correct me if I'm wrong here) Winnipeg, Montreal, Calgary/Edmonton, and some of the secondary and tertiary markets.

That's something I wish the US could do more of, actually. Direct immigrants to cities that have surplus housing and that could easily and cheaply absorb more population. Places like Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Memphis, Birmingham, etc. Instead, we have immigrants concentrated in our most expensive and housing constrained markets like New York, SF, LA. I recognize there are limits on the government's power when it comes to this, but perhaps Canada has more leeway here.

Also, they could look at opening up more portions of the urban growth boundary for development. It's a noble goal to limit sprawl and institute a UGB, but if housing affordability is really becoming a crisis, then perhaps it's worth looking at making adjustments there, too.

Last edited by edale; Nov 3, 2021 at 12:24 AM.
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  #75  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
If the rate of growth is the 'problem' here, and almost all of Canada's growth is due to immigration, it seems that a relatively simple solution would be to limit immigration for a period of time to allow for the housing market to come into balance with demand. Perhaps Canada could be more prescriptive about where refugees and immigrants may settle-- pushing them into cities with capacity for growth like (correct me if I'm wrong here) Winnipeg, Montreal, Calgary/Edmonton, and some of the secondary and tertiary markets.

That's something I wish the US could do more of, actually. Direct immigrants to cities that have surplus housing and that could easily and cheaply absorb more population. Places like Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Memphis, Birmingham, etc. Instead, we have immigrants concentrated in our most expensive and housing constrained markets like New York, SF, LA. I recognize there are limits on the government's power when it comes to this, but perhaps Canada has more leeway here.

Also, they could look at opening up more portions of the urban growth boundary for development. It's a noble goal to limit sprawl and institute an UGB, but if housing affordability is really becoming a crisis, then perhaps it's worth looking at making adjustments there, too.
High housing prices is how you get people to move to less desirable cities as we are seeing in Canada where the fastest growing cities are now in the Maritime provinces.
Canada's problem isn't a high growth rate as it has growth was much quicker in the recent pass. it's cities refusing to allocate space for more housing as this article points out.
There is also no need to open up the green belt to built more car dependent sprawl as there's enough room in Toronto to double the cities population if we let market forces loose.
This is why the province is fighting with Toronto after all.

Last edited by Nite; Nov 2, 2021 at 7:52 PM.
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  #76  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 7:59 PM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
If the rate of growth is the 'problem' here, and almost all of Canada's growth is due to immigration, it seems that a relatively simple solution would be to limit immigration for a period of time to allow for the housing market to come into balance with demand. .
Limiting immigration to Canada is a political non-starter for the most part given how it's always framed in terms of absolute good vs. absolute evil.
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  #77  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 8:02 PM
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Perhaps Canada could be more prescriptive about where refugees and immigrants may settle-- pushing them into cities with capacity for growth like (correct me if I'm wrong here) Winnipeg, Montreal, Calgary/Edmonton, and some of the secondary and tertiary markets.

That's something I wish the US could do more of, actually. Direct immigrants to cities that have surplus housing and that could easily and cheaply absorb more population. Places like Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Memphis, Birmingham, etc. Instead, we have immigrants concentrated in our most expensive and housing constrained markets like New York, SF, LA. I recognize there are limits on the government's power when it comes to this, but perhaps Canada has more leeway here.
No, we don't have more leeway here.

All that can be done is incentivize to some degree the settlement of immigrants away from the very biggest cities, but even so there isn't anything to prevent people from moving to the big cities eventually as freedom of movement is of course guaranteed by the Constitution.
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  #78  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 10:30 PM
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  #79  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 10:45 PM
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Making Toronto more affordable, or at least limiting increases, will need a multi-pronged approach. Allowing a ton of highrises won't be enough.

Without question, opening up at least a moderate amount of SFRs (like along arterials) to at least moderate densities would go a long way.

My region focuses growth into commercial areas too. I like turning car-oriented nodes into mixed-use walkable ones. But this land is limited and is getting more and more expensive.
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  #80  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2021, 11:56 PM
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It sort of generically resembles Mississauga (highrises next to SFHs) but in Westwood you actually do get a bit of that "missing middle" housing as a buffer: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0595.../data=!3m1!1e3

In fact there are a LOT of housing units in that area that are of the missing middle variety. You can see that neighborhood to the south densifying in real time. The towers themselves are smaller scale, built closer together, and integrated into the street grid. Westwood is not one of my favorite hoods, but still, it's worlds apart from the towers-in-a-park hot mess that is Mississauga: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5906.../data=!3m1!1e3
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