NEW YORK | 175 Park Avenue (Grand Hyatt) | 1,575 FT | 86 FLOORS

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

I wonder if this will crack 1,500' for the roof/spire. I'd like to see it as the new tallest and reach 1,600'.

I hope so. This needs to top 1 Vanderbilt, at minimum.

We know it will likely be bigger than 1 Vanderbilt, as they're assembling air rights for a 2 million+ square foot tower.

[JMKeynes]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I hope so. This needs to top 1 Vanderbilt, at minimum.

We know it will likely be bigger than 1 Vanderbilt, as they're assembling air rights for a 2 million+ square foot tower.

Good point

[Visionist]

I actually like simple glass boxes, but only if they're exceptionally tall and slender. Trump World Tower for instance.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Visionist

I actually like simple glass boxes, but only if they're exceptionally tall and slender. Trump World Tower for instance.

Then you should like 343 Madison, also nearby. I like glass boxes myself, but not for the tallest buildings on the skyline.


I’m convinced that “Project Commodore” will be worthy of the city and the site.

[Doubleu1117]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I hope so. This needs to top 1 Vanderbilt, at minimum.

We know it will likely be bigger than 1 Vanderbilt, as they're assembling air rights for a 2 million+ square foot tower.

Hope so, all the recent big boys are creating a 1,400ish (give or take) plateau, would love to see one or two poke out past that. Park 432, 1 Vand, CPT, 111W57, and then especially when we get 270 park, 350 and Tower 5th. It's gonna take 1,600 ft to breakout past the new plateau. (this is such a good "problem" to have, complaining about a pleateu at 1,400- 1,500 feet lol)

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by Doubleu1117

Hope so, all the recent big boys are creating a 1,400ish (give or take) plateau, would love to see one or two poke out past that. Park 432, 1 Vand, CPT, 111W57, and then especially when we get 270 park, 350 and Tower 5th. It's gonna take 1,600 ft to breakout past the new plateau. (this is such a good "problem" to have, complaining about a pleateu at 1,400- 1,500 feet lol)

Yea and considering CPT is pretty close to 1600 it may take more like 16-1700 to really stick out in Midtown.

If they want to make their mark they'd better build noticeably higher than their many very tall neighbors though so hopefully we get something insane.

One Vanderbilt is 1.75 MSF with very high ceilings and a lot of vanity height. I hope this tower ends up being a lot more than 2 MSF, or at least a lot skinnier than Vanderbilt to pull that off.

[Sky88]

Perhaps the Grand Hyatt Tower could "outwardly" look like this tower.

[pianowizard]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

One Vanderbilt is 1.75 MSF with very high ceilings and a lot of vanity height. I hope this tower ends up being a lot more than 2 MSF, or at least a lot skinnier than Vanderbilt to pull that off.

Unfortunately, as a hotel this is going to have much lower ceilings than 1 Vanderbilt, and while a few hotels do have a lot of vanity height (e.g. Burj Al Arab), usually they don't. Finally, even the tallest hotel in the world, Dubai's Gevora Hotel completed in 2017, is only 1,169 ft, and the tallest in NYC is only 753 ft. Hotels simply don't need to be very tall. When a hotel wants to have very high floors, it typically occupies the top floors of a mixed-use building, e.g. the Guangzhou CTF Finance Centre.

For all these reasons, my prediction is this will be shorter than 1 Vanderbilt. I hope I am wrong!

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by pianowizard

For all these reasons, my prediction is this will be shorter than 1 Vanderbilt. I hope I am wrong!

You're probably right, people hoping for a 1600+ footer here are likely to be really disappointed.

Maybe it'll be like 1,200 feet. It has fewer SF than 1WTC or 30HY which are a bit taller than that.

The design though, that could still be awesome

[Sky88]

For all these reasons, my prediction is this will be shorter than 1 Vanderbilt. I hope I am wrong!

Yes, I believe you are wrong. The tower will be mixed-use, with shops at the base and a small hotel at the top. The rest is all offices. The tower will be much taller than 1 Vanderbilt. Nobody spends $ 3 billion on a stupid 1,200 ft tower.

[pianowizard]

Originally Posted by Sky88

Nobody spends $ 3 billion on a stupid 1,200 ft tower.

The Central Park Tower cost exactly $3 billion, and 1 Vanderbilt cost $3.31 billion. So, $3 billion for a 1200-footer that's less skinny than CPT and has lower ceilings than 1 Vandy sounds about right in midtown Manhattan.

I hope you are right, and I am wrong.

[Sky88]

Originally Posted by pianowizard

The Central Park Tower cost exactly $3 billion, and 1 Vanderbilt cost $3.31 billion. So, $3 billion for a 1200-footer that's less skinny than CPT and has lower ceilings than 1 Vandy sounds about right in midtown Manhattan.

I hope you are right, and I am wrong.

The tower will cost much more than 3 billion and will be taller than 1 Vanderbilt.

[BXFrank]

Good argument, but averaging the height for all these new towers in NYC today they’re popping up at around 1,200 ft. Plus I see a trend of only residential towers competing for height to sell “better views”, I don’t see the benefits of office/hotels competing for height, in my opinion.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

One Vanderbilt is 1.75 MSF with very high ceilings and a lot of vanity height. I hope this tower ends up being a lot more than 2 MSF, or at least a lot skinnier than Vanderbilt to pull that off.

Keep in mind, that's gross sq ft, not the actual zoned sf, which is closer to 1.5 msf of floor space.

Originally Posted by pianowizard

Unfortunately, as a hotel this is going to have much lower ceilings than 1 Vanderbilt, and while a few hotels do have a lot of vanity height (e.g. Burj Al Arab), usually they don't.

For all these reasons, my prediction is this will be shorter than 1 Vanderbilt. I hope I am wrong!

The hotel component will be a small portion of the tower, that's why it's being drastically reduced in size from what's there now. And of course, it's the way the city zoned it. After all, they didn't go through the trouble of putting this zoning in place to build hotels, far from it. Hotels are restricted in the area. But this is a complicated site. It's leased from the MTA, the hotel is somehow transferring that to the developers. So of course they should still have a seat at the table. Of 2 msf, if we get 200,000 sf of hotel, retail would likely be less than 100,000 sf. That still leaves more space than all of Vanderbilt. So, consider it Vanderbilt placed on top of a hotel. And as they've said, One Vanderbilt is exactly the type of tower they are trying to build. Which would give it excessively high ceiling to attract the top of the market.

But the amount of square footage doesn't always play in the height. 343 Madison Avenue will fall just short of 1 msf, yet will rise to nearly 1,100 ft. The Tower Fifth proposal will have just over a msf, but would rise higher than 1,500 ft.

Originally Posted by BXFrank

I see a trend of only residential towers competing for height to sell “better views”, I don’t see the benefits of office/hotels competing for height, in my opinion.

It really makes no sense for office towers to be that high. Mixed-use, where you could put hotel and condos above the offices would work better for buildings exceeding that height. But really, it all comes down to design.

Something like that wouldn't shock me at all. This will be another trophy tower, and the location calls for something special. We're in a new age of skyline changing, something like the 20's/30's, where some of the towers that were built are still considered icons, and just when one was built, another seemed to top it. It's a lot of fun, and I'm enjoying the ride. I don't know if you'll see 1,700 ft here, but it will be an epic tower whatever it is. And then we'll put our eyes on the Empire Station district to see what comes up there.

[NYguy]

Nothing we don't know already, but...


https://www.pincusco.com/tf-cornerst...redevelopment/

RXR, TF Cornerstone, MSD apply for city review for Grand Hyatt redevelopment

September 25, 2020
PincusCo Media

RXR Realty, TF Cornerstone and MSD Partners moved forward with plans to demolish and redevelop the Grand Hyatt hotel at 109 East 42nd Street in Grand Central by making an application for the City Environmental Quality Review process on their parcel.

Initial reports indicated the development would span 2 million square feet and would have office space, retail space, and a smaller Grand Hyatt hotel. The new hotel will have 500 rooms and 10,000-square-feet of meeting space, substantially smaller than current hotel which has 1,298 rooms.

[pianowizard]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Of 2 msf, if we get 200,000 sf of hotel

Hmm, I didn't realize that the hotel component would be such a small portion of the whole tower; I was expecting at least 50%. In this case I am less pessimistic about the height. It might still take a substantial vanity height to exceed 1600 ft, but crowns and spires are fairly common for mixed-use buildings especially those dominated by office use, so as long as Grand Hyatt is feeling ambitious, it may indeed happen.

1725 ft would be exciting, but even better to add another 52 ft of vanity height to beat the 1WTC! I hope it's a well-designed crown, not a skinny spire like the 1WTC's or NYT's.

[citybooster]

Even earlier reports suggested about 500 rooms...the height won't suffer from a reduced hotel component. If they want to build at least 1,500 ft they will. NYguy beat me to the punch here but states it so well.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by pianowizard

Hmm, I didn't realize that the hotel component would be such a small portion of the whole tower; I was expecting at least 50%. In this case I am less pessimistic about the height. It might still take a substantial vanity height to exceed 1600 ft, but crowns and spires are fairly common for mixed-use buildings especially those dominated by office use, so as long as Grand Hyatt is feeling ambitious, it may indeed happen.

1725 ft would be exciting, but even better to add another 52 ft of vanity height to beat the 1WTC! I hope it's a well-designed crown, not a skinny spire like the 1WTC's or NYT's.

I want that height not so much just because it's tall (always exciting), but I don't want too many towers too close together of similar height. 270 Park is already very close in height to Vanderbilt. A tower here of similar height would be a throwback to that earlier rendering of fraternal twins. I want a tower with as much or close to as much of a height differential with Vanderbilt as Vanderbilt has with the Chrysler. That would leave each of those 3 buildings distinctly different, but allowing for all to shine. And it would be pleasing to the eyes.


Ignore the ring here, but fraternal twins on this site I don't really want. If we get twins, let them be real twins.

None of this...










That being said, the zoning envelope would call for a tapering tower anway, whatever form that takes.

[pianowizard]

Originally Posted by NYguy

I want that height not so much just because it's tall (always exciting), but I don't want too many towers too close together of similar height.

I agree that the Midtown plateau that has started to form will get boring before long.

The ESB was head and shoulders above everyone else in Midtown for 85 years. I hope that Grand Hyatt or another developer will aspire to be the next ESB, completely dominating over the bevy of 1300 - 1500 footers that have been built, or are being built, or will soon be built. 1600 ft would not cut it. Ideally this developer will shoot for at least 1777 ft, to become not only the new Midtown giant but also the tallest building outside Asia.

[NYguy]

We already know that this will be a very tall tower that will be visible on the skyline all around. We know that the hotel itself is supposed to close the year after next - if it can reopen at all. That was the plan.


https://www.hyatt.com/en-US/hotel/ne...gh/news-events

The proposed redevelopment project, in collaboration with TF Cornerstone and RXR Realty, would replace the existing Grand Hyatt New York and create an iconic 2-million-square-foot mixed-use development, including a new luxury Grand Hyatt hotel, world-class office and retail space, new public open space and dramatic improvements to the public transportation infrastructure in the Grand Central Terminal transit complex.

I know the public space part is a component of the midtown east rezoning. But I don't know how that fits in here. This site is, in effect, a wing of Grand Central, and there is a streetwall here to maintain. The consourse and streetfront retail would be retail. There is a chance to rebuild the Lexington concourse with higher ceilings, creating another dramatic entrance to Grand Central. There is so much at play here for the ground level, I just can't wait to see what they have in store.



The Grand Hyatt portion of the concours...












Some google images of the way the current building meets the street and it's surroundings...


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