[Moncton] Centre Avenir Centre | 26.65m |~6 Fl | Completed

[mmmatt]

^ thanks for posting that. It's very nice to know there is interest from such large high profile developers in our small town affairs

I have doubts about the cities timelines as they have come and gone many times before, but it does feel like there is momentum building. I only hope that the folks with the cash will take notice soon and offer help...as much as I want this to go forward, I doubt the city can go it alone.

We need another Moncton Miracle!!

[Monctoncore]

Just an FYI at last nights council meeting, which isn't mentioned here is that the Hoteliers of Moncton have offered to put 700 thousand a year for 10 years to help pay for the arena/ pay it back I assume. Anyway thats 7 million dollars off the "100 million dollars ". Which is a start!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Monctoncore

Just an FYI at last nights council meeting, which isn't mentioned here is that the Hoteliers of Moncton have offered to put 700 thousand a year for 10 years to help pay for the arena/ pay it back I assume. Anyway thats 7 million dollars off the "100 million dollars ". Which is a start!

This $7M pledge over 10 years is to assist with operating costs, not the initial capital outlay but this is still an important investment by the hoteliers.

Apparently hotel occupancy in the city is starting to slide and this is worrying the hotel association. They blame this on the fact that the Coliseum isn't drawing big acts in the off season like it used to. The hoteliers want a new events centre because they know it is critical to their survival.

They plan on financing their contribution through a form of occupancy tax, so hotel room rates will go up slightly. This would be painless form of taxation for the municipality.

[pierremoncton]

An article on CBC:

Moncton downtown centre figures don't add up, Hicks says
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...e-figures.html

What I find interesting is the comments. Look at their approval ratings and note how the majority seem to deplore the investment. Personally, I'm on the fence -- I don't really care whether it gets built or not -- but I don't think it's fair to the constituents to be spending their money when it's 'waste' in their eyes. Has the city ever run a public survey on the matter?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by pierremoncton

What I find interesting is the comments. Look at their approval ratings and note how the majority seem to deplore the investment. Personally, I'm on the fence -- I don't really care whether it gets built or not -- but I don't think it's fair to the constituents to be spending their money when it's 'waste' in their eyes. Has the city ever run a public survey on the matter?

Never, ever, read comments on a news website..least of all CBC. You'll never see a more irrational anti-everything crowd on the face of this earth.

[mylesmalley]

JHikka said. You'll find people on the CBC willing to complain about ANYTHING given the opportunity. My personal favourites are the comments that attack government for being meddlesome and in the same sentence complain that Fredericton isn't doing enough for me!

I think a big problem is you've got certain people who are actively campaigning against it - not necessarily saying so, but through their actions. Tossing out outrageous (made up) numbers and then yelling about how nobody can explain where the (made up) numbers came from is disingenuous and only serves to get people riled up.

As for a plebiscite or survey... I'm not opposed to going to the public for input. We live in a democracy after all and the project would be funded largely through tax dollars. People will almost always oppose spending money unless they see a direct and obvious benefit to themselves personally. Can you imagine if we let people decide whether or not they wanted to fund schools or hospitals in communities they didn't live in?

I think the city should go after Dieppe and Riverview to contribute too. The majority of the economic benefits will go to Moncton, that's for sure. But as a public good, the events centre will benefit everyone in the region who uses it or the infrastructure it brings with it.

[Monctoncore]

Councilor Hicks, is also the only one from City Council CBC ever talks to about the Events Center, never quotes from anybody else... Also I agree with Myles, Dieppe and Riverview should contribute to this project as much as the can, because its a local venue for all of us to use. With Dieppe and Riverviews growth, its only fair they contribute since they will be using it!

[kwajo]

That does seem like a reasonable ask of Dieppe and Riverview. Here in Saint John, there is a regional infrastructure funding system that sees the surrounding communities contribute a set proportion of annual operational funding for regional facilities such as Harbour Station, the Canada Games Aquatic Centre and Imperial Theatre, for example. It's called the Greater Saint John Regional Facilities Commission and it was set up under provincial legislation: http://www.gnb.ca/0062/PDF-acts/g-05-1.pdf

[MonctonRad]

I don't know how formal the arrangements are, but Riverview and Dieppe traditionally help to fund projects in the city deemed of regional interest. A good example is the Capitol Theatre.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Ask Dieppe and Riverview to contribute, so long as Dieppe doesn't demand all French signs. I think it would benifet Riverview most, as it would be closer to Riverview then most is the rest of Moncton or Dieppe.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

Ask Dieppe and Riverview to contribute, so long as Dieppe doesn't demand all French signs. I think it would benifet Riverview most, as it would be closer to Riverview then most is the rest of Moncton or Dieppe.

All French signs aren't even common in Dieppe, because there is such a thing as Anglo-Acadians -- and there are many anglophones in general residing in Dieppe.

It goes without saying that the 'Centre Moncton Centre' would have bilingual signage.

[MonctonRad]

Excerpts from an article in today's T&T
http://22864.vws.magma.ca/index.php?&article_id=10896

Events Centre Hopefuls A Varied Group:

L'Aréna de Canadiens Inc./ Evenko:/ Evenko is a Quebec company that presents more than 850 musical, family and sporting events annually throughout the province of Quebec, Atlantic Canada and the eastern United States. In July 2012, Pollstar, the entertainment industry's most respected publication, ranked evenko (the company spells its name with a lowercase 'e') ninth worldwide in the Promoter category, while its Bell Centre was ranked first in North America in the category of Top Arena Venue. The company's other venue projects include the Bell Sports Complex in Brossard, Que., and the proposed Place Bell in Laval, Que.

Ellis Don: Ellis Don's partners are Global Spectrum, the architectural fir m BBB, Southwest Properties Ltd., and Dufferin Financial Services.

The fact Global Spectrum's website offers service in five languages gives some idea of its international scope. It has a growing presence in the United States and is becoming the largest public assembly facility management provider in Canada, but the company has also planted roots in Asia, Europe, the Middle East, and South America. All told, they currently operate 40 arenas, 29 convention centres, 10 stadiums, five perfor ming arts centres, five ice facilities and two entertainment and retail districts, these last two in Niagara Falls, N.Y., and Philadelphia.

The Toronto fir m BBB architects does work globally, and limiting its projects just to facilities similar to that envisioned for Moncton, the company has designed multi-purpose arts, entertainment and retail centres for Moscow and Kiev, Russia, as well as for Qingdao, China, and Vilnius, Lithuania.

Ellis Don also has a Maritime partner in its bid for the Moncton job. Southwest Properties of Halifax has been in the news recently for buying the Algonquin Hotel. It is also the company behind Bishop's Landing on the Halifax waterfront, as well as dozens of other developments and iconic buildings in that city. It was named one of Canada's top 50 best-managed companies in 2011.

Lastly, Dufferin Financial Group is a Canadian fir m based in London, Ont.

Bird Construction: Bird Construction was founded in Moose Jaw, Sask., in 1920 and today has a nationwide presence. Among its recent New Brunswick projects are the Piccadilly potash mine in Sussex, Northrop Frye and Eleanor Graham schools in Moncton and Rexton, the Saint John law courts, and most Walmart and Sobeys stores in New Brunswick and the rest of the country.

For the proposed Moncton centre, Bird has partnered with Armco Capital, SMG, Populous, and Stantec.

Armco Capital was founded in 1982 by members of the Armoyan family in Halifax. It has grown from a small business run almost entirely by two brothers into a diversified group of companies. It has been recognized as one of Canada's 50 best-managed companies for three consecutive years. Armco has been especially busy with public-private partnerships to build schools in Nova Scotia, and was similarly involved in the building of Leo Hayes High School in Fredericton. It also has properties in Quebec, Texas and Florida.

Spectacor Management Group, or SMG, manages the Hershey Centre in Mississauga, Ont., and the K-Rock Centre in Kingston, Ont.

Populous has designed more than 1,000 sporting venues around the world since its founding 30 years ago. Its projects include London's Olympic Stadium and the stadium for next year's Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia, to name just two in a thousand.

Finally, Bird Construction has a local partner, Stantec, which until recently was known as Architecture 2000.

All excellent candidates. It is interesting that one of Bird Constructions partners is Stantec (Architecture 2000). I wonder what this could mean for this proposal from the original visioning process.....

• Video Link

Just kidding of course........

My own personal favourite from the visioning exercise remains this offering from Architects Four



I would imagine the two most experienced potential developers (Ellis Don and Evenko) will be the front runners in this process

[MonctonRad]

T&T article today about the presentation by Downtown London Inc regarding their own events centre.
http://22864.vws.magma.ca/index.php?&article_id=10903

Moncton urged to chase events centre dream
Thursday, April 18, 2013
Times & Transcript
By: Alan Cochrane

Director of Downtown London says events centre investment has paid off with spinoff development, activity

Investing in a 10,000-seat events centre has revitalized the City of London's downtown with many new businesses, restaurants and residential spaces - and the director of Downtown London told business leaders in Moncton yesterday that the city should move forward with its own plan immediately.

'Just stop talking about it and get it done,' Janette MacDonald, executive director of Downtown London, said at the conclusion of a public meeting on a downtown events centre. About 350 people representing Metro Moncton's business community attended the morning symposium, held at the Capitol Theatre. The audience included business leaders, councillors and others. Mayor George LeBlanc made a point of noting the historic Capitol Theatre was in a dilapidated state 20 years ago when the council of the day decided to make the investment and restore it to a beautiful gem of a performing arts centre.

MacDonald said London, Ont., with a population of 358,000, had a downtown that was decimated by urban sprawl and suburban malls. The city had built a mall in the downtown but it failed. There are malls with national chains and big box stores in the suburbs, but London's downtown is now filled with condos, fine dining restaurants and destination shops around the events centre. Thousands of people work and live in the area surrounding it.

'There was nothing about London to bring people to London before we built the centre.' She said the idea of building a 10,000-seat downtown multi-events centre was slow to catch on and was unpopular in the press. It took a lot of talk and a lot of convincing, through two city councils and three mayors, before they finally got their action plan in motion.

A downtown committee of 13 councillors put together an action plan and budget, and then pushed for approval of a $130-million investment for the centre. They rebuilt the downtown market and library and moved forward with development of the events centre.

The city invested approximately $130 million into a public-private partnership with builders of the centre. It started out as the John Labatt Centre in 2002 and was recently renamed as the Budweiser Gardens. It is home to the London Knights hockey team, the London Lightning basketball team and has hosted many big concerts and sporting events. Last month, the centre hosted the world figure skating championships, bringing people from all over the globe to London. It is also used for many community events, school productions, ballet and theatrical stage shows.

MacDonald said the centre made money in its first year and the spinoff benefits have been worth the investment. The city offered incentive programs and the planning commission pushed developers away from the suburbs and into the downtown. The result has been new businesses (an average of 20 per year), new restaurants, condominium developments and restoration of older buildings into business and residential complexes. The planning policy dictates that new buildings must be of designs that go along with the historic nature of the existing downtown architecture.

In her presentation, MacDonald said Downtown London now has 30,000 office workers and over 1,000 students in local colleges, the downtown market has 37,000 visitors per month, the library gets 100,000 visits per month, and more than 750,000 people a year attend events at Budweiser Gardens.

MacDonald said the downtown commission works hard to make sure that the city and developers put investments into downtown and not into the suburbs.

She said that developers of the events centre designed it without a lot of parking close by, so that people attending events would park and walk through the downtown area. The idea was that people would patronize the restaurants, pubs and businesses around the centre, making a night of their experience and enjoying the ambiance of the downtown.

MacDonald advised people in Moncton to dream big, make sure the events centre has a good location, create partnerships between the centre and its tenants and local businesses, and make sure the centre has good management that will work with the community and entertainment companies to fill the calendar with events that will generate the traffic needed to keep the downtown buzzing with economic activity.

'It's more than a building, you need to make it the heart of the downtown,' said Chris Campbell, director of marketing for Budweiser Gardens.

Campbell said the London Knights hockey games are regularly sold out with more than 9,000 people in the building, and there is a long waiting list for tickets. He said the 10,000seat capacity for concerts works well for bigger shows but there are also those that draw fewer than 5,000 people.

During last month's figure skating championships, all the hotels were full and there were over 400 media representatives from around the world in London.

'We are no longer in the shadow of Toronto. We're a city of 350,000 that is getting the big shows.' Following the presentations, Mayor George LeBlanc said he was happy to hear the reallife success story from London.

'This is the most significant thing that they could have done for their city and their downtown. Their comment was 'don't walk to build this, run to build this and do it now.' Listening to the difficulties they had and the lessons learned were very valuable for us and I think it helps to give us the confidence that this can be done, should be done and that it can work.' LeBlanc said there were important lessons learned in the planning and collaborative approach of building the centre and keeping it running.

'If we can do it, this will be the most significant and successful project that we have done in many years.' LeBlanc said there have been concerns about the cost to the city of building such a centre and whether it would bring viable spinoff benefits.

'This has an economic return to the city that will be huge for years to come. They heard all the same issues and now 10 years later they can't imagine their city without it. The cost of doing nothing here in Moncton is that we will lose our edge as the sport and entertainment centre and the economic benefit of this is such that we cannot tur n a blind eye to it.'

[MonctonRad]

from Councillor Dawn Arnold's Facebook page:

Starting to percolate this morning's excellent presentation by Downtown London (ON) CEO and the Budweiser Gardens' Director of Marketing. First, it was so nice to see so many people out and their level of interest. While London and Moncton are very different places and we are going to need a "Made in Moncton" solution, it was quite interesting to hear about many of the similarities in the two situations. London's downtown was a disaster 15 years ago. They had allowed urban sprawl to suck the life out of their centre, and the city was suffering as a result...vacant, boarded up buildings, urban decay, safety issues, etc. However, they had a vision (which took three councils and two mayors to accomplish!). Today, their downtown (BIA) represents just .2% of their city's total geographic area, but pays 9% of all property taxes, 81% of all the office space in the entire city is in their BIA (there are MANY other excellent stats, but I couldn't take them all down...will post a link soon). As for the Budweiser Centre itself, prior to its opening, their London Knights (the equivalent of our Wildcats) generally had 3-4,000 fans per game...however, since opening day in 2002, they have 95% sold out their 9,000-seats (38 corporate suites sold out immediately and there is a 3-year waiting list for season's tickets). They have had 7.5 million people (not counting hockey games) through the centre since opening and NOTHING happened in the downtown core until the centre was built. The secret to their success? 1. location (downtown...no question!); 2. strong partnerships (with tenants, City, community organizations, etc.) 3. professional management company (they can move fast, they know the industry, they can accommodate the wide variety of shows that sell: family oriented shows, Diana Kroll (3,000), monster truck show, Royal Winnipeg Ballet (2,000), Cirque de Soleil (they actually use the centre to rehearse), etc.4. marketing and public relations: this needs to be a concerted effort with everyone rowing in the same direction; 5. leadership (once again, 3 city councils and 2 mayors...hope we can do better!). They have had all kinds of huge events now, but the World Figure Skating was the largest and just for that one event they had 449 media from 50 countries...London invested $130 million in its downtown more than a decade ago...they currently have 30,000 office workers in their downtown, 100,000 people through their library every month, 2000 students, 495 retail businesses, 50+ new restaurants and they bring in $12-13 million in new taxes every year. My question is this: if the City won't invest in itself, why would the private sector invest? This is an amazing time for the City to be a catalyst for change. However, we need a proper business case to present to our shareholders, Moncton's taxpayers. We're working on this.

Personal note - I have highlighted one bit of text in Dawn Arnold's post that I think says it all - if the city doesn't invest in itself, then who else will?

[RyeJay]

A socialised investment, as opposed to an investment solely from the private sector, in downtown Moncton is one of the safest investments in the entire province.

The global trend of urbanisation is obvious in New Brunswick as well. The province's smaller municipalities are seeing declines in population and economic activity, while the cities are seeing gains. The 'build it and they will come' notion isn't quite applicable to Moncton -- because they are coming regardless.

And this is why the events centre should happen: the City of Moncton needs to allocate as many of these new arrivals to the core as possible. In the absence of an urban plan for sustainability, public investments in the core is the next best method for re-directing (to a degree) private interest inward. With an injection of this public cash, the events centre would bring jobs to the downtown, which would bring private residential and commercial developments -- instead of it all going to yet-to-be-built suburbs.

If Moncton doesn't make its downtown more desirable, private interests will continue demanding for the city to put more urban sprawl on the public credit card. Every business park expansion the city creates works against the city's long-term prosperity.

Why do a portion of people complain about how expensive a downtown events centre is, when these same people aren't complaining about how many times more expensive suburban expansions are?

At least the core events centre builds revenue and is using infrastructure that is already there. The low-density suburbs bleed away public money every year for as long as they exist. And that bleeding will flow more heavily due to the inflation of infrastructure materials and the costs of labour (construction workers, teachers, doctors, police officers, etc.).

It is well known that New Brunswick's balance sheets aren't looking too well. The ball needs to get rollin' for economic growth in the downtown, before the province is too strapped for cash to continue subsidising (either partially or completely) Moncton's infrastructure and public services debt. The City of Moncton cannot handle its own debts without provincial help. Therefore: When Moncton begins having budgetary issues, the downtown needs to be in good shape to continue providing a region in which private sector growth is still possible.

Even though I am not hoping for this, especially since it would likely destroy the events centre's chances for funding: a small part of me is wanting Moncton's budgetary problems to arrive sooner rather than later, because then the city would no longer have the means to continue harming itself with more urban sprawl. Moncton would have no choice but to commit to sustainable planning and development.

(Or, what's more likely is for a loud minority of anglophones to continue blaming all the francophones for the comparably minor costs of duality...)

[Unlearn Relearn]

Too many people are wrongly focused on obtaining a grand urbanistic project to replace the old Highfield Square, and this is their first priority. Second priority is they want to pull downtown businesses out of their death bed. And lastly they want a $100 million dollars building that is supposed to be a miraculous shrine specializing in healing for all that is wrong. Take a minute and read this: http://www.eurasiareview.com/2306201...es-build-oped/

In this document issued by City of Moncton due date March 15, 2013, “City of Moncton
Request for Qualifications #RFQ12-135”. City of Moncton clearly states that it has no money to invest in this events center project. City of Moncton clearly states that it will not offer financial guarantees nor would it offer any financial support for the construction and the upkeep of the Center, the financial risk of operating losses will have to be borne solely on the builder and his partners.
City has refused to guarantee future income of the project. It is the preference of the City of Moncton to not have any involvement in the ongoing operation of the multi-use sports and entertainment facility, but remain a partner in the project by virtue of the contribution of land and capital costs. The City of Moncton prefers to minimize its capital investments and business risks associated with the project.
The City of Moncton does not wish to underwrite any operating losses associated with the
facility. As part of the agreement with the City of Moncton, the successful Proponent will be
required to keep the facility in a good state of repair on a continual basis, and meet all required
standards of the City of Moncton with respect to operation of a major community facility.
City refuses to be responsible for future losses of this project
City failed to attract Provincial money, Federal money and private investors.
City insists that project be built in the worse possible location the heavily contaminated and way too small Highfield Square.
Private investor must put up all the cash, get bank loans that the City will not guarantee,
Private Investor must be responsible for making this project a financial success, City refuses to cooperate financially.
Above all else HS location is the worst possible location anyone can imagine. No on-site parking, No expansion possibilities, No possibility of leasing the land, it is much too small an area and not connected with another big project that would bring in clients for the project. Read: www.totot.ca

[mylesmalley]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Opposition to this project is just as welcome as supportive posts in this thread.

However,

You need to provide links to sources if you're quoting an article or publication.

This site isn't a venue for you to plug your own projects or investments.


Rules aside, I frankly don't think you're making even a tiny-bit credible case here. I will say your site is pretty funny though.

most designs appeared to portray ultra-modern oversized and squeezed-in buildings. I heard someone say that one design looked as if the new events centre was an out-of-town whore wearing a tight black blouse, a push-up bra, a leopard print mini-skirt, knee-high laced-up boots with hooker heels, covered in an inch of make-up, sporting a multi-colored wig, displaying an unusual amount of testosterone while patiently waiting by the train station to pick up her next trick. Someone else said that another design resembled an elaborate inter-galactic spacecraft that landed on earth exactly on Highfield Square.

Or

Downtown buildings located by the railroad tracks anywhere in the world are always the seediest, most ailing, beat up, bedraggled, crummy, decaying, decrepit, dingy, dog-eared, down-at-the-heel, drooping, droopy, faded, flagging, frowzy, gone to seed, grubby, in a bad way, mangy, messy, neglected, old, overgrown, poor, poorly, ragged, ratty, sagging, scruffy, shabby, sickly, sleazy*, slovenly, squalid, tacky, tattered, threadbare, tired, torn, unkempt, untidy, unwell, used up, wilted, wilting, most drug infested places in town.

This one is my favourite though.

A Sports and Entertainment Complex does NOT need to be located on Main Street downtown Moncton. If the Moncton High School can be located 8 km from downtown in one direction, the Sports and Entertainment Centre can also be located 8km from downtown. For example the airport is located 15 kilometres from downtown Moncton and still people fly in and out several times a day and never complain of its location. The Casino is 15 km away from downtown and it is doing well. The Coliseum is 12 km from City Hall. The new Moncton High School is more than 8 km from downtown. The proposed new location is in lower Coverdale and is only 5 miles or 8 km from Highfield Square. Lower Coverdale is an unincorporated community located within Greater Moncton and begins only 4 km from Gunningsville Bridge.

[mylesmalley]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Opposition to this project is just as welcome as supportive posts in this thread.

However,

You need to provide links to sources if you're quoting an article or publication.

This site isn't a venue for you to plug your own projects or investments.


Rules aside, I frankly don't think you're making even a tiny-bit credible case here. I will say your site is pretty funny though.

most designs appeared to portray ultra-modern oversized and squeezed-in buildings. I heard someone say that one design looked as if the new events centre was an out-of-town whore wearing a tight black blouse, a push-up bra, a leopard print mini-skirt, knee-high laced-up boots with hooker heels, covered in an inch of make-up, sporting a multi-colored wig, displaying an unusual amount of testosterone while patiently waiting by the train station to pick up her next trick. Someone else said that another design resembled an elaborate inter-galactic spacecraft that landed on earth exactly on Highfield Square.

Or

Downtown buildings located by the railroad tracks anywhere in the world are always the seediest, most ailing, beat up, bedraggled, crummy, decaying, decrepit, dingy, dog-eared, down-at-the-heel, drooping, droopy, faded, flagging, frowzy, gone to seed, grubby, in a bad way, mangy, messy, neglected, old, overgrown, poor, poorly, ragged, ratty, sagging, scruffy, shabby, sickly, sleazy*, slovenly, squalid, tacky, tattered, threadbare, tired, torn, unkempt, untidy, unwell, used up, wilted, wilting, most drug infested places in town.

This one is my favourite though.

A Sports and Entertainment Complex does NOT need to be located on Main Street downtown Moncton. If the Moncton High School can be located 8 km from downtown in one direction, the Sports and Entertainment Centre can also be located 8km from downtown. For example the airport is located 15 kilometres from downtown Moncton and still people fly in and out several times a day and never complain of its location. The Casino is 15 km away from downtown and it is doing well. The Coliseum is 12 km from City Hall. The new Moncton High School is more than 8 km from downtown. The proposed new location is in lower Coverdale and is only 5 miles or 8 km from Highfield Square. Lower Coverdale is an unincorporated community located within Greater Moncton and begins only 4 km from Gunningsville Bridge.

[Unlearn Relearn]

"" Tossing out outrageous (made up) numbers and then yelling about how nobody can explain where the (made up) numbers came from is disingenuous and only serves to get people riled up."" City of Moncton clearly said in their document due date March 15, 2013 "Request for Qualifications #RFQ12-135" that itwill not offer financial guarantees nor would it offer any financial support for the construction and the upkeep of the Center, the financial risk of operating losses will have to be borne solely on the builder and his partners.
City offering land but no financial support, that means ZERO MONEY.
Then this: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...e-figures.html where it is stated that City of Moncton will contribute $65 million, contradicted by another amount by city manager Mr. Dube $46 million. The city manager has said council should have all the information it needs to make a decision within the next 15 months.
Next 15 months????? Incidently don't get your hopes up, all of the companies that showed an interest to develop the events center will only do so if someone else provides the money. They are not banks, if/when there is money, yes they will want to build and take their profits from building the site. No way can they nor will they guarantee that the events center will be profitable after it's built, city of Moncton knows that and city of Moncton won't guarantee it either.

[mmmatt]

Originally Posted by Unlearn Relearn

Second priority is they want to pull downtown businesses out of their death bed.

I won't bother arguing the rest of your posts as they are too ridiculous to even make an attempt...

This issue however I think is an idea many people have right now and I'm not sure why...downtown is doing quite well right now...there are few empty retail store fronts and offices are filling up. Residential infill is ongoing and looks like it will pick up steam in the short to long term. Even "lowly" st George street is coming around with the help of the city and private investment.

People who I hear mention that I cannot help but correct...and after some more serious thought usually agree that it's doing quite well compared to even 5 years ago.

That's not to say the events center isn't needed to bolster that growth and create more density of commercial and residential, but it's not as though downtown is on its "deathbed" by any means.

Sorry if my posts are more poorly written than usual is of late...it's very annoying to type on here with an iPhone...we need an app!