WINNIPEG | Portage Place Redevelopment

[BAKGUY]

IF....Portage Place goes ahead, then The HBC redevelopment might move along quicker.
It would be great if they could properly compliment each other and 2 new draws downtown would cause some interest to say the least. Plus, with more and more residents nearby, that should support several new eateries and shops.

[bomberjet]

If the governments are willing to kick in $60 mil for PP. There better be zero excuses about funding for HBC.

[thebasketballgeek]

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/lo...574836192.html

Oh look Starlight is asking for even more money. Imo there has already been way too much funding put into this, however, Starlight stated they have no intention of asking the city for money and are going straight to the feds. Even with this news it seems less and less likely this project goes through.

I just wish that one day these dwindling properties can be redeveloped without the city kissing the developers ass and giving them all the funding and tax breaks they could possibly want. That probably won't happen throughout my lifetime tho.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/lo...574836192.html

Oh look Starlight is asking for even more money. Imo there has already been way too much funding put into this, however, Starlight stated they have no intention of asking the city for money and are going straight to the feds. Even with this news it seems less and less likely this project goes through.

I just wish that one day these dwindling properties can be redeveloped without the city kissing the developers ass and giving them all the funding and tax breaks they could possibly want. That probably won't happen throughout my lifetime tho.

I think the request for more federal $$ is an old one; it's just the extension requested of city council that is new.

I can only guess what the discussion is about at the federal level, but I think it might be whether the 30% "affordable units" are enough to justify the level of federal funding. Maybe with an election possibly around the corner the funding will flow to "demonstrate commitment to affordable housing", as they say?

On a personal note, yeah, I'm getting pretty sick of the development song-and-dance too.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I think the request for more federal $$ is an old one; it's just the extension requested of city council that is new.

I can only guess what the discussion is about at the federal level, but I think it might be whether the 30% "affordable units" are enough to justify the level of federal funding. Maybe with an election possibly around the corner the funding will flow to "demonstrate commitment to affordable housing", as they say?

On a personal note, yeah, I'm getting pretty sick of the development song-and-dance too.

This is all such horseshit. Why not pass the hat, get each of the government commitments first, and *then* sell the mall?

Sure, Starlight was the only one interested, but that's *before* a giant pile of government money was shaken loose.

Think of it this way: Once everything is approved by all levels, if Starlight were to sell the property, it's clear it would be worth considerably more than they paid.

The additional "value" that would go entirely to Starlight all just comes from having firmed up all the government commitments. Pure rent-seeking, zero actual value.

[prairiedog007]

lets face it, with all the government money they are getting the building and parkade for free

[Highwayman]

Originally Posted by prairiedog007

lets face it, with all the government money they are getting the building and parkade for free

Exactly.
We should have just kept the mall at this point and dare I say it. Let the government develop the damn thing. Heck they still probably have the original designs from back in the 80's. Shouldn't be to hard to actually finish a project. It's getting up to the 40 year mark now for phase two lol. And by 2050 we will see phase 3 which will be the second tower built. Slow and steady.

But honestly at this point starlight needs to just get lost. I rather see all those federal and city and provincial dollars put into The Bay building. That one would spur something for Portage Place.

[davequanbury]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

I just wish that one day these dwindling properties can be redeveloped without the city kissing the developers ass and giving them all the funding and tax breaks they could possibly want. That probably won't happen throughout my lifetime tho.

If it makes you feel any better, it has always been this in Winnipeg going back to the prime real estate and subsidies given to the railway companies and manufacturing firms in the 1800s. Here's an excerpt from "Gateway City" by Alan Artibise.

"Winnipeg, the city’s businessmen conceived a variety of programs to attract railways. They soon found, however, that the expenses involved in their efforts - which included the building of an expensive railway bridge and outright cash grants - could be met only with the resources of the municipal corporations. Similar problems were faced in efforts to make Winnipeg a major manufacturing centre and in programs designed to attract immigrants."

[1ajs]

portage place should aim to service downtown and the growing community in the exchnge not the suburbanites it dont need a wstefull dumpfilling rehab it needs a paint job and a vision the pads could use development for sure

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by Highwayman

Exactly.
We should have just kept the mall at this point and dare I say it. Let the government develop the damn thing. Heck they still probably have the original designs from back in the 80's. Shouldn't be to hard to actually finish a project. It's getting up to the 40 year mark now for phase two lol. And by 2050 we will see phase 3 which will be the second tower built. Slow and steady.

But honestly at this point starlight needs to just get lost. I rather see all those federal and city and provincial dollars put into The Bay building. That one would spur something for Portage Place.

But the government has had multiple decades to do any of that and it didn't. Never really bothered to discuss it all that much for that matter.

I'd still rather public money went into this to fix Portage Place altogether and do it right this time. As such, I don't honestly care how much Starlight gets as long as they deliver a product that's economically viable.

PP was built back when the governments of all levels of government thought they could turn back the clock and make downtown a shopping mecca again. Any observer of the time could see it was a stupid focus from the beginning but they pushed ahead anyway. PP was busy for a while but as the social issues didn't go anywhere, of course PP was doomed from the start.

Now we're at least heading in the right direction by trying to grow the downtown residential population. The more people we put there the more businesses they can support to make it a true neighborhood.

So basically, if we can buy our way out of this mess, I'm %100 on board with my tax dollars going towards it.

[hello]

Ridiculous how much tax payer subsidies are given away to large companies like True North or Starlight. Asking for 50 mil and a 243 mil loan to renovate the mall and add two apartment buildings? Hard pass on that. There are lots of apartments being built in downtown and the gov shouldn't be handing out subsidies for a project like this. Very few groups have deep enough pockets to undertake such a project and Starlight realizes it so they have their hands out for money but they are getting over 440,000 SF of retail/office, huge residential density and isn't the parking lot over 1000 stalls? Each stall is worth a good 20k alone. The Manitoba gov has already said they will give them 28.7 mil and the city 20 mil. So basically Starlight expects the site for free and in return they will renovate the mall and build apartments? They would make a fortune on this redevelopment if they get what they ask. What a waste of tax payer money.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Spocket

But the government has had multiple decades to do any of that and it didn't. Never really bothered to discuss it all that much for that matter.

I'd still rather public money went into this to fix Portage Place altogether and do it right this time. As such, I don't honestly care how much Starlight gets as long as they deliver a product that's economically viable.

PP was built back when the governments of all levels of government thought they could turn back the clock and make downtown a shopping mecca again. Any observer of the time could see it was a stupid focus from the beginning but they pushed ahead anyway. PP was busy for a while but as the social issues didn't go anywhere, of course PP was doomed from the start.

Now we're at least heading in the right direction by trying to grow the downtown residential population. The more people we put there the more businesses they can support to make it a true neighborhood.

So basically, if we can buy our way out of this mess, I'm %100 on board with my tax dollars going towards it.

I can't really argue with any of this, because at this point what is the alternative? Wait for some imagined sugar daddy with deep pockets to come along and "save" PP with their own money and you invite the social issues to grow hugely. Do the PP project now and a big chunk of downtown gets re-purposed and more people live downtown.

I also understand the reluctance to spent more tax $$ on this project, but really, what part of the $400 million came from YOUR tax return? Ten million? Two million? It's probably more like $15 from every tax payer in Canada. $15 seems like a small amount to chip in to get PP redeveloped, but that's just me.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by hello

Ridiculous how much tax payer subsidies are given away to large companies like True North or Starlight. Asking for 50 mil and a 243 mil loan to renovate the mall and add two apartment buildings? Hard pass on that. There are lots of apartments being built in downtown and the gov shouldn't be handing out subsidies for a project like this. Very few groups have deep enough pockets to undertake such a project and Starlight realizes it so they have their hands out for money but they are getting over 440,000 SF of retail/office, huge residential density and isn't the parking lot over 1000 stalls? Each stall is worth a good 20k alone. The Manitoba gov has already said they will give them 28.7 mil and the city 20 mil. So basically Starlight expects the site for free and in return they will renovate the mall and build apartments? They would make a fortune on this redevelopment if they get what they ask. What a waste of tax payer money.

They'll pay millions in property tax every year. If the province and feds kick in the money, the full amount will be paid back to the city in a few years. The province and feds will get their money back in taxes Starlight will pay on the fortune they make on this project.

It might be shady, corporate welfare, even an example of corruption, but if Starlight is up to the job it won't be a waste of money. Fortress over at Skycity was a waste of money (plus all those other things).

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by biguc

They'll pay millions in property tax every year. If the province and feds kick in the money, the full amount will be paid back to the city in a few years. The province and feds will get their money back in taxes Starlight will pay on the fortune they make on this project.

It might be shady, corporate welfare, even an example of corruption, but if Starlight is up to the job it won't be a waste of money. Fortress over at Skycity was a waste of money (plus all those other things).

Think that’s just more wishful thinking, once the grants and other public money run out they’ll be back at the trough looking for tax breaks and crying poor, isn’t that always the way nowadays, politicians for the most part lack the balls to say NO MORE!

[hello]

28 mil in tax incremental financing means they won't be paying near fair value for property taxes. Same deal as other projects like True North. I think it is typically around a 16 year break on property taxes so their cash flow will be huge.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by hello

28 mil in tax incremental financing means they won't be paying near fair value for property taxes. Same deal as other projects like True North. I think it is typically around a 16 year break on property taxes so their cash flow will be huge.

I’m amazed at how far these developers can push today’s spineless politicians until they break and give up everything, it’s like playing poker with suckers and always knowing what their hand holds!

[hello]

Agreed, developers won't buy development land unless they think it is feasible to develop with current zoning and no subsidies. If they are telling you it isn't feasible to develop and need gov subsidies then they wouldn't have bough it or it was a bad business decision to purchase. I'm good with the idea of TIF being used to revitalize heritage buildings because they are often very expensive to retrofit but it is stupid for new buildings like 300 Main and True North to receive any subsidies. Great to see more infill development but we shouldn't have to subsidize it. The city should restrict sprawl and greenfield development and naturally we would see more infill development

[1ajs]

if i was in government and looked at the track record of true north id have them at top of my list to work with

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

if i was in government and looked at the track record of true north id have them at top of my list to work with

I see buildings, tall buildings, several of them, and more on the way
I see business
I see people living in the downtown
I see an arena that draws thousands

They'd be on the top of my list too.

[hello]

True North is a no doubt a great group and done some great projects but what other Canadian city gives subsidies to develop downtown? I can't think of any. Calgary is offering subsidies to convert office buildings which makes sense given they have 30% vacancy and office conversions are expensive and often unfeasible without subsidies but I can't think of any other Canadian city that subsidizes new projects like Winnipeg has. Many other projects are underway without subsidies so i'd argue it isn't necessary