I-5 Bridge Replacement - Formerly Columbia River Crossing | Proposed

[MarkDaMan]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

And once that time ends, the tolls will be extended indefinitely, because there's no way they'd let a revenue stream go away.

I dread everything about this project. I wish they'd consider The Common Sense Alternative.

The bridge used to be tolled actually. So did the Astoria bridge. There is precedence of Oregon removing tolls once a project is paid for. But it was also different times then too.

[NOPO]

I’ll be very happy if those tolls never go away. We need a way to discourage sprawl in Clark county. They’re also considering tolls on southern I-5 and I-205 in Clackamas and Washington counties. Excellent in my opinion. Keep them forever.

[CorbinWarrick]

Originally Posted by NOPO

I’ll be very happy if those tolls never go away. We need a way to discourage sprawl in Clark county. They’re also considering tolls on southern I-5 and I-205 in Clackamas and Washington counties. Excellent in my opinion. Keep them forever.

But now back roads are going to be busy

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by NOPO

I’ll be very happy if those tolls never go away. We need a way to discourage sprawl in Clark county. They’re also considering tolls on southern I-5 and I-205 in Clackamas and Washington counties. Excellent in my opinion. Keep them forever.

To be honest, I can live with a toll. I just dread a single bridge project that balloons out of control again. So much time and money has already been wasted with nothing to show for it.

I'm not convinced a one-bridge-fits-all solution is the best option.

[NOPO]

Originally Posted by CorbinWarrick

But now back roads are going to be busy

That won’t happen between Clark county and Oregon. And tolling the southern extent of our freeways may filter cars onto side streets. I’m of the opinion all roads should be congestion tolled. But I don’t think extra congestion on side streets is a bad thing. It should encourage us to build more robust public transit using funds from roads, again in my opinion.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

And once that time ends, the tolls will be extended indefinitely, because there's no way they'd let a revenue stream go away.

I dread everything about this project. I wish they'd consider The Common Sense Alternative.

Most likely these tolls would have a timeframe for when they would be removed, just like past tolls in Oregon have functioned once what they were used for was paid off.

The keeping tolls around indefinitely tends to happen on tolled state highways in other states, and there are cases where interstates have kept their tolls because there is always a new project to be paid for due to the heavy use of those interstates.


Edit: I didn't notice the link to the video when I said this. I like a lot of things in the Common Sense Alternative, I think the passenger rail/road bridge would be a good idea on its own to happen, especially if we are moving in the direction of having some sort of high speed rail in the Northwest. I do however thing the existing I-5 bridge still needs to be replaced and done so with light rail added to it.

[tworivers]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

I dread everything about this project. I wish they'd consider The Common Sense Alternative.

This x1000.

Plus income-conscious tolls, with the revenue stream devoted to 1) maintenance of existing infrastructure, 2) mitigating the ecological, social, and political collapse that awaits us if we continue gobbling up a finite resource (our home, the earth) as if there were no limits, and 3) free transit for all.

[MarkDaMan]

https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/07/1...eid=db611f9f6a

Portland City Council Votes Unanimously to Rejoin Rose Quarter Project and Keep I-5 Bridge Process Moving
The approvals are interim steps on the two massive ODOT projects.
Willamette Week
By Nigel Jaquiss
July 13, 2022 at 3:49 pm PDT

The Portland City Council today voted unanimously to keep two major Oregon Department of Transportation projects moving forward.

The council signaled its support for rejoining the process and proceeding with the expansion of Interstate 5 at the Rose Quarter. That expansion is part of a major transportation funding package the Legislature passed in 2017. Since then, the widening of the freeway has proceeded slowly because of concerns raised by environmental groups, the Albina Vision Trust, and Portland Public Schools, which operates Harriet Tubman Middle School adjacent to the current bottleneck at the Rose Quarter.

...

The I-5 bridge replacement, a bistate project that has been on the drawing board for decades, also got a conditional green light from the council. That vote signals Portland’s approval to move forward with a review of the proposed bridge’s environmental impact.

“We have attached conditions of approval to our endorsement that make clear to the Interstate Bridge Replacement program what our requirements and expectations are,” Hardesty said. “This includes process and community engagement, how to implement the stated climate and equity commitments, and accountability to this council and our partners.”

The Metro Council is scheduled to vote on the bridge project tomorrow.

[Jakz]

https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting...ge-option.html

I've never found ODOT's reasons for not building a tunnel very convincing, so I decided to lay out what it would look like. I'm an engineer, I nerd out on this stuff. See snips below.

A few conclusions:
1. The SR 14 connection is completely doable. Loops are great. ODOT/WSDOT were not trying very hard when they ruled out ramps to SR 14.
2. Tunneling under the BNSF railroad tracks could absolutely be done. It would require building a bridge for the tracks at grade, and then excavating beneath it. It's commonly done.
3. Nearly 100% of the tunneling, for both the highway and the ramps, could be done in open fields. These are ideal conditions for cut and cover tunnels.
4. Sequencing would be relatively straightforward. The tunnels and ramps could all be built with minimal impacts to existing infrastructure.
5. On the Portland side, the concepts so far make no sense. The Marine Dr. interchange was poorly designed and overbuilt. We should cut our losses, demolish the unnecessary flyover, and simplify the geometry. All that needs to happen is a re-route of MLK/Marine Dr. and some minor ramp modifications.
6. The Hayden island interchange is unnecessary. If it wasn't an island we wouldn't even think of putting interchanges so close together.
7. Some great opportunities to reconnect Vancouver's street grid and open up lots of land for development. This would be some of the hottest land in the metro area, with the MAX and the Vancouver waterfront right there.
8. While we're at it, let's plan ahead for HSR and relocate Vancouver's poorly placed Amtrak station. This route would also eventually serve as commuter rail, connecting to Union Station in 10-15 minutes (most likely routed by a tunnel from Kenton to Mocks Crest).
9. ODOT has expressed concern about a long bike/pedestrian tunnel. Solution: Don't build one. No one wants to walk 1.5 miles in a tunnel under a river. Instead, make use of the MAX tracks. Add an automated trolley that just goes back and forth every 5-10 minutes, timed to cut the MAX headway times in half or thirds. Problem solved.

According to ODOT, the tunnel by itself would cost $3.08B (see https://www.interstatebridge.org/med...remediated.pdf) With the ramps and the overall complexity, round that up to $4B. Add another $1B for MAX. Funding for HSR (if included) would come from Amtrak or elsewhere. Leave it out for an apples-to-apples to comparison. Add another $1B for street paving/rerouting and miscellaneous.

That's $5.1B. The latest estimate for the bridge project is $7.5B. We should absolutely build a tunnel!

Note: I don't know the right people, I just do this for fun. But if any of you do, please forward on!

[dizflip]

Sadly, regional leadership is far too foolish to consider this. I'm actually convinced they're all quite stupid.

[2oh1]

This entire region is due for a massive earthquake. Doubling-down on a choke point that could be (would be?) damaged if not destroyed by The Big One seems foolish to me.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. I dread everything about this project.

I wish they'd consider The Common Sense Alternative.

[PhillyPDX]

I do like the common sense alt, without having spent a great deal of time thinking about it. I'm also in the industry (or was....less so now). The local bridge to hayden island is such a no brainer....I hate that I have to deal with I-5 just cross that little distance. So I don't even both if it's anywhere near rush hour.

If not the common sense alt, why not provide a tunnel for through-traffic only? Would alleviate the tunnel grade issues, and then the connection with downtown could remain as is. Send 2-3 lanes underground from Seismic upgrade for interstate bridge obviously.

With the way transit is going, I fear this new line extension will be a total waste of money. I was all behind it, until I wasn't. What are the ridership projections? Or at least, what were they?

[uncommon.name]

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

I do like the common sense alt, without having spent a great deal of time thinking about it. I'm also in the industry (or was....less so now). The local bridge to hayden island is such a no brainer....I hate that I have to deal with I-5 just cross that little distance. So I don't even both if it's anywhere near rush hour.

If not the common sense alt, why not provide a tunnel for through-traffic only? Would alleviate the tunnel grade issues, and then the connection with downtown could remain as is. Send 2-3 lanes underground from Seismic upgrade for interstate bridge obviously.

With the way transit is going, I fear this new line extension will be a total waste of money. I was all behind it, until I wasn't. What are the ridership projections? Or at least, what were they?

I think the CSA could achieve a lot of needs for the region in general. It's been widely talked about for decades that we need more bridges over the Columbia and this directly utilizes it. I'm not sure just how accurate their cost estimates are however, and there will surely be a lot more hoops to jump through to get approval for connections in new areas, massive changes to the BNSF bridge and other alterations to infrastructure needed.

I'm also curious about the tunnel option. Tunnels are successfully used all over the world including Japan, where massive earthquakes are fairly common. Being underwater, I would certainly hope this thing would be built completely impenetrable or we would be in big trouble in the event of "the big one".

[PhillyPDX]

From my vague recollection of the tunnel options in due diligence reports, is it was discounted due to grade issues, assuming it’s a tunnel for all traffic, which obviously presents connectivity issues at connecting roads near the river (14, etc). But what about sending a few (2-3) through-lanes in a tunnel and have it daylight say at mill plain instead of 14? Delta park to mill plain is a bit over 2 miles…not cheap, but this project as proposed is now $7.5b and that will obviously grow to $10b+ when it’s all done. Let a rehabbed interstate bridge carry MLK/Hayden island/14 traffic.

[CorbinWarrick]

The tunnel is not happening. Waste of time. Just like the i5 project we continue to waste time talking and watching the price go up when it’s inevitable these projects are happening.

Just build the damn thing before it gets even more expensive

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by CorbinWarrick

The tunnel is not happening. Waste of time. Just like the i5 project we continue to waste time talking and watching the price go up when it’s inevitable these projects are happening.

Just build the damn thing before it gets even more expensive

Just build what? Replacing the bridge with a failed idea is going to create a failure of a bridge that will eventually need to be replaced again.

[PhillyPDX]

I'm curious how much this bridge (if/when it gets built) further depletes Portland. The bridge crossing are a significant hindrance to people commuting to Portland from Clark County. I would even argue by far the most significant reason people don't choose Clark County at this point. Literally everyone I know that lives there qualifies it with statements like "despite the bridge traffic"...and surely many don't move there because of it. If that becomes less of an issue, or a non issue at some point? I fear the flood gates will open.

[CorbinWarrick]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

Just build what? Replacing the bridge with a failed idea is going to create a failure of a bridge that will eventually need to be replaced again.

Well time is ticking and getting more expensive by the day. Just like the I5 project. It’s going to happen inevitably so might as well get moving

[NOPO]

Originally Posted by CorbinWarrick

Well time is ticking and getting more expensive by the day. Just like the I5 project. It’s going to happen inevitably so might as well get moving

No, this is not the kind of thinking we need. MAX needs to go into Vancouver and they need to not widen the freeway. I’m really liking the idea of a tunnel with a tram for pedestrians on top of MAX. If they’re wasting money and you think they should build anything you are indeed going to get a car-centric monstrosity that does not serve the multi-modal needs of our region and the reality of induced demand.

[NOPO]

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

I'm curious how much this bridge (if/when it gets built) further depletes Portland. The bridge crossing are a significant hindrance to people commuting to Portland from Clark County. I would even argue by far the most significant reason people don't choose Clark County at this point. Literally everyone I know that lives there qualifies it with statements like "despite the bridge traffic"...and surely many don't move there because of it. If that becomes less of an issue, or a non issue at some point? I fear the flood gates will open.

This is why it should be progressively tolled. Permanently. I-5 and I-205 bridges, both.