Rail Transit (Passenger and Freight) in Ontario

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

As it stands right now, ONTC departs from Bay Street Bus Terminal in Downtown TO. Maybe Presto card can be implemented, but then be ready to load $100+ onto your presto card.

Well it's not like they couldn't reroute the buses.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Would it make sense to merge Ontario Northland with GO? They're both agencies of the province that provide passenger transportation. And it's a bit ironic that Government of Ontario transit only moves people in the Golden Horseshoe, while entirely ignoring the rest of the province. Just seems to me that having them under one umbrella would eliminate a lot of waste, while also providing fare integration and schedule coordination. For example, someone in Kitchener wants to visit friends in North Bay. They could take the GO Train to Union, then transfer to a bus headed north, with nothing more than their Presto card.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Ontario Northland does more than just passenger buses, they handle a remote rail line still including both passenger and freight.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

As it stands right now, ONTC departs from Bay Street Bus Terminal in Downtown TO. Maybe Presto card can be implemented, but then be ready to load $100+ onto your presto card.

This is what people in the North have been wanting. Originally, it used to fall under the Ministry of Northern development and Mines. This year, it is now finally under the right ministry - Ministry of Transportation.

https://www.nugget.ca/news/local-new...rthland-to-mto

We have been asking it to be blended into Metrolinx and GO. ONR already does the refurbishment of the GOO coaches.

The freight could still be a part of it, but have it as a separate department.

[roger1818]

GO is a branch of Metrolinx (along with the UPE, Crosstown and PRESTO). There could be some logic to also include Ontario Northland under Metrolinx (not GO), but according to their website:

Metrolinx, an agency of the Government of Ontario under the Metrolinx Act, 2006, was created to improve the coordination and integration of all modes of transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area.

Unless Metrolinx's mandate was extended to include all of Ontario, I don't think it is a good fit.

EDIT: Maybe we should do the opposite and make Metrolinx a division of Ontario Northland.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

GO is a branch of Metrolinx (along with the UPE, Crosstown and PRESTO). There could be some logic to also include Ontario Northland under Metrolinx (not GO), but according to their website:
Unless Metrolinx's mandate was extended to include all of Ontario, I don't think it is a good fit.

EDIT: Maybe we should do the opposite and make Metrolinx a division of Ontario Northland.

Your edit makes good sense.

[Dengler Avenue]

Does anyone know how to calculate the width of the ROW with double tracks?
This is my attempt:
https://tc.canada.ca/en/rail-transpo...ay-clearance#5
Based on 5.1a, 5.3b and 5.3b, I first get 1.435 m (centre to track, x2) + 3.96 m (2 main tracks) + 0.508 m (1 degree of curvature) + 0.635 m (superelevation) = 6.538 m.
Then, I've read from somewhere that the distance from the centre of the outer track to the boundary of ROW is 15.24 m, so the overall width (from the outer edge of the rail tie to the other side) should be 6.538 m - 0.7175 m + 15.24 m = (rounded up) 21.061 m. Is that correct?

Edit: Oops, I got the decimal points wrong. BRB redoing the calculation!
1.435 m (centre to outer frame of rail tie, x2) + 3.96 m (2 main tracks) + 0.0508 m/degree x 1 degree difference* + 0.0635 m/m x 2 m elevation difference = 5.5728 m
Then add 15.24 m - 0.7175 m** to it: 20.0953 m. Yay or nay?

* This is according to https://trn.trains.com/railroads/ask...0radii%20lines.
** This is to avoid double-counting the distance from center to outer frame of the rail tie of the outer track.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://www.saultstar.com/news/local...y-acknowledged

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

https://www.saultstar.com/news/local...y-acknowledged

Thanks. One interesting quote from the article was:

No rail service will also add an estimated 40,000 trucks to Ontario’s highway between Sault Ste. Marie and Sudbury, creating a huge safety issue and significant pollution.

Huron Central Railway operates over 288 kilometres of leased track providing commercial freight service between Sault Ste. Marie and Sudbury.

HCR is a cost-efficient supply route for the region’s forestry and steel industries currently transporting more than 12,000 carloads of freight annually.

Without this critical transportation link, HCR’s carload volume will be forced to migrate to trucks along neighbouring highways.

The issue is even bigger than it first seems. It is probable that most of that freight is not to/from Sudbury but, somewhere further east/south. If the freight needs to be transported by truck for part of the trip, it is usually cheaper to transport it by truck for the entire trip, so you would see an increase in trucks on highways in the rest of the province as well.

[Dengler Avenue]

And 109 more trucks (per day) on the 2-lane 17 sure spells nothing but trouble.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://www.elliotlaketoday.com/loca...losure-2850082
Will Huron Shore become like Upper Ottawa Valley?
Personally I’d like MTO to take over the potentially abandoned yard in Blind River and build 417 there though. That avoids going through a significant portion of Mississagi 8 FN. Then entering SSM, it’ll then be possible to go around Rankins 15D. But it may be game-over for Port Algoma.
@swimmer_spe for sure will strongly disapprove of this line of thinking.
Me: “Getting 417 through Deux-Rivières was easier than I thought! I could just use the abandoned CPR ROW.”
@swimmer_spe: “LEAVE. THE. RAIL. ALONE!”

Personally, I’m simply done with this fiasco and frustrated with the issue that economy scale means that doing anything in Northern Ontario is difficult.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

https://www.elliotlaketoday.com/loca...losure-2850082
Will Huron Shore become like Upper Ottawa Valley?
Personally I’d like MTO to take over the potentially abandoned yard in Blind River and build 417 there though. That avoids going through a significant portion of Mississagi 8 FN. Then entering SSM, it’ll then be possible to go around Rankins 15D. But it may be game-over for Port Algoma.
@swimmer_spe for sure will strongly disapprove of this line of thinking.
Me: “Getting 417 through Deux-Rivières was easier than I thought! I could just use the abandoned CPR ROW.”
@swimmer_spe: “LEAVE. THE. RAIL. ALONE!”

Personally, I’m simply done with this fiasco and frustrated with the issue that economy scale means that doing anything in Northern Ontario is difficult.

I don't see another bailout for this line. I do see the government taking over operations and possibly ownership of it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I don't see another bailout for this line. I do see the government taking over operations and possibly ownership of it.

It would certainly make sense for ONR to take over HCR, but I am not sure that it will happen, since ONR would have to buy HCR (or at least their ROW) at fair market value and then pay to rehabilitate the track.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It would certainly make sense for ONR to take over HCR, but I am not sure that it will happen, since ONR would have to buy HCR (or at least their ROW) at fair market value and then pay to rehabilitate the track.

In other words, instead of constantly subsidizing a private company, the province buys it and pays for it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

In other words, instead of constantly subsidizing a private company, the province buys it and pays for it.

I don't disagree, but politicians aren't necessarily that forward thinking. I expect they would just let the private company go bankrupt, even if it costs the taxpayers more in the long run with increased highway infrastructure for all the extra trucks. Politicians are more concerned about expenses between now and the next election.

[Dengler Avenue]

Thankfully, with the pandemic, it’s possible to write that off as “stimulating the economy”. I’m curious if Ross Romano, MPP SSM, will push for acquisition by ONR.

Ps: What does your profile picture mean? xD

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't disagree, but politicians aren't necessarily that forward thinking. I expect they would just let the private company go bankrupt, even if it costs the taxpayers more in the long run with increased highway infrastructure for all the extra trucks. Politicians are more concerned about expenses between now and the next election.

Politicians are concerned with getting elected. Full stop. So, if they are able to throw money around, so long as they get the required photo op, if it is good for the campaign, then they will do it.

I expect the line to be silent for a few weeks/months before something more happens.

[Dengler Avenue]

Okay I'm stoking the fire by emailing M.T.O.

To Whom It Might Concern:
With Huron Central Rail slated to cease operation this December, is there any chance that M.T.O. will purchase the ROW from Genesee & Wyoming for future ONR expansion or for a divided freeway between Sault Sainte Marie and Sudbury?
Thanks.
Best,
(My name)

Edit: I didn’t mention that negotiation with FN’s in the latter case would be easier because I felt that mentioning it could get me into trouble down the road.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.soot...ervice-2856205

A Sudbury-based company would like to partner up with ONR to take over HCR.

However, the optics of Genesee & Wyoming being owned by wealthy multi-national owners of Brookfield Partners and GIC, a Singaporean fund, combined with repeated threats since 2009 to discontinue has worn thin with some Northerners.

The Greater Sudbury Chamber of Commerce dispatched a letter urging provincial Transportation Minister Caroline Mulroney and Garneau to deny giving a "handout" of taxpayer dollars to Genesee & Wyoming and, instead, opt for a made-in-the-North solution.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://www.ontario.ca/page/consulta...-rail-corridor
Fill it out, everyone! It’s due November 20.

[Dengler Avenue]

The reply from MTO is vague:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the status of the Huron Central Railway (HCRY).



Shortline railways are an important part of Ontario’s extensive freight rail network. The government appreciates the significance of rail transportation to the economy and the important role that it plays in connecting different industries in Northern Ontario to suppliers and distributors across North America.



Our government recognizes the challenges that HCRY is facing and continues to monitor the situation. My ministry is working alongside the Ministry of Energy, Northern Development and Mines to consider options to support continued operations along the HCRY line, along with other options to sustain and leverage rail transportation in Northern Ontario. We remain open to discussions with HCRY and other partners, as appropriate, to explore long-term solutions.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

The reply from MTO is vague:

You will not get a yes/no from the government.

It sounds like the answer really says "we have not made anything public yet." I'll be they have a plan ready to go when the current operations shut down.