PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Boku

Fashion District Stores: PREIT Announces Latest Tenants Ahead of September Opening

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2019/...-philadelphia/

Seems like standard mall fare to me

They need stores that will stay open- tried and true common brands meet that criteria. When you are attracting tourist dollars it often pays to have chains/stores they know and love. To make this work you need tourist and teenager money to be spent- those groups are less depressed by the rise of online spending. The mix of retail seems to be catering to those groups- not millenials who likely buy 90% of their goods online anyway.

[mcgrath618]

I believe this will be the first Chickie’s to open downtown.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I believe this will be the first Chickie’s to open downtown.

There are actually a couple of Chickie's and Pete's down on Penns Landing (one down at the Harbor Park, and one in the River Rink), and have been for a little while. Not really full-service, though.

[jsbrook]

The Peyton, parking garage to apartment conversion around 16th and Pine close to wrapping up.

[iheartphilly]

^^^
Nice photo updates, JS.

Also, this is noteworthy. Gives West Philly's Science and Innovation Hub a run for its money. Maybe some collaborations and spill over to West Philly's Science Center.

http://www.mainlinemedianews.com/kin...fb098b493.html

https://thediscoverylabs.com/

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Boku

Fashion District Stores: PREIT Announces Latest Tenants Ahead of September Opening

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2019/...-philadelphia/

Seems like standard mall fare to me

Yeah...because it's, uh, a mall? What were you guys expecting, Louis Vuitton? Newbury Street, Walnut Street or Magnificent Mile are effectively outdoor malls with standard "mall fare" - a lot of these tenants are new to downtown shopping, which as a downtown worker and resident, is a great thing. Just confused as to what your expectations were to begin with?

Anyways, just spent the last hour doing a bit of a walkabout down there and some random observations in no particular order:

• The vista walking East viewed from around 1234 is decidedly improved. Even without the paint job, the complex feels clean and updated.
• The Marriott - which i think is the city's largest hotel by room count - is in desperate need of a facelift. The green awnings are ragged and disintegrating. Would love to see this hotel get a refurb and maybe add some digital signs while it's at it.
• I like the addition of the sidewalk cutouts for landscaping/plants and benches - but these will become weed pits and trash magnets if PREIT doesn't do constant maintenance throughout the year.
• Ulta exterior sign is up and looks good. No other exterior signs yet. Tons of heavy work was going on at the 11th and Market Entrance (AMC).
• At the 9th street main entrance - it appears they may be carving out a restaurant space with outdoor seating that opens onto the entrance plaza. Would be cool if this was the C&Ps.
• Walking through Dilworth from Market West to Market East is like emerging into another dimension. Everything feels different about the streets - even the street furniture is different from one side to the other. And noticeably, the clientele immediately changes.
• I would say 80% of the people on the street are incredibly rough looking. This isn't racial as the folks come in all shapes, sizes, colors. If they weren't in that 80% group, they seemed to be tourists. It's an eerie vacuum of normalcy.
• The Bus Shelters at 11th and 10th street - directly in front of the Loews - are homeless encampments. I counted 19 people laying inside them, enjoying the shade. The urine smell was extreme. Again, a huge contrast to Market West. Will PREIT and the businesses along this stretch tolerate this?
• If they are truly trying to reinvigorate Market East they'll need to find a way to somehow clean this up like Market West has done.
• Creating a good shopping district is all about making the place feel inviting - so people want to spend as much time (and by extension money) there - linger/explore - as possible. Make it comfortable. With how decrepit the south side of the street is for much of the stretch and with the clientele that's lingering about...I think the complex still has a ways to go in this regard. Here's hoping...

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Yeah...because it's, uh, a mall? What were you guys expecting, Louis Vuitton? Newbury Street, Walnut Street or Magnificent Mile are effectively outdoor malls with standard "mall fare" - a lot of these tenants are new to downtown shopping, which as a downtown worker and resident, is a great thing. Just confused as to what your expectations were to begin with?

Anyways, just spent the last hour doing a bit of a walkabout down there and some random observations in no particular order:

• The vista walking East viewed from around 1234 is decidedly improved. Even without the paint job, the complex feels clean and updated.
• The Marriott - which i think is the city's largest hotel by room count - is in desperate need of a facelift. The green awnings are ragged and disintegrating. Would love to see this hotel get a refurb and maybe add some digital signs while it's at it.
• I like the addition of the sidewalk cutouts for landscaping/plants and benches - but these will become weed pits and trash magnets if PREIT doesn't do constant maintenance throughout the year.
• Ulta exterior sign is up and looks good. No other exterior signs yet. Tons of heavy work was going on at the 11th and Market Entrance (AMC).
• At the 9th street main entrance - it appears they may be carving out a restaurant space with outdoor seating that opens onto the entrance plaza. Would be cool if this was the C&Ps.
• Walking through Dilworth from Market West to Market East is like emerging into another dimension. Everything feels different about the streets - even the street furniture is different from one side to the other. And noticeably, the clientele immediately changes.
• I would say 80% of the people on the street are incredibly rough looking. This isn't racial as the folks come in all shapes, sizes, colors. If they weren't in that 80% group, they seemed to be tourists. It's an eerie vacuum of normalcy.
• The Bus Shelters at 11th and 10th street - directly in front of the Loews - are homeless encampments. I counted 19 people laying inside them, enjoying the shade. The urine smell was extreme. Again, a huge contrast to Market West. Will PREIT and the businesses along this stretch tolerate this?
• If they are truly trying to reinvigorate Market East they'll need to find a way to somehow clean this up like Market West has done.
• Creating a good shopping district is all about making the place feel inviting - so people want to spend as much time (and by extension money) there - linger/explore - as possible. Make it comfortable. With how decrepit the south side of the street is for much of the stretch and with the clientele that's lingering about...I think the complex still has a ways to go in this regard. Here's hoping...

These are all great observations and ones I agree with entirely. Of note, though, is how Market East compares on all of those points to the Market East of say....2015. There has been VAST improvement on these points since then and if the Gallery performs as expected, development will push Market East over the edge to improvements in these areas.

I think the methadone clinic is outta there at some point soon, IIRC. If that is indeed the case, that will do wonders to clear some of the homelessness that thrives on that stretch.

And it seems like the Goldbergs (or whoever is holding on to the Disney Hole) are waiting to see how Gallery pans out. That will be the shift that will finally push this over the cliff.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Yeah...because it's, uh, a mall? What were you guys expecting,

Point taken, but, speaking for myself, I don't think that's the point of naysayers. I'm hoping for a handful of "destination" attractions/dining, which retail needs these days. I think the movie theatre and arcade will be that for some. For me, it will be City Winery. I think it needs a few more, like the Eataly that's been discussed. I don't really care as much about the shoppes (although it would be nice to have some non-run-of-the-mill stores to make things interesting). Otherwise it will just be Gallery Redux and a hangout. If they have spent all of the money to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, it might have been better spent on demo and a new concept.

[iheartphilly]

^
Big shopping malls have to re-invent themselves due to the retail landscapes and online shopping. Many articles out there but here's one:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gregpet.../#7874e55e7221

Like in the suburbs, KOP mall is king of the hill, and all surrounding malls like Springfield Mall, Granite Run Mall, Plymouth Meeting Mall are either dying or in the process of re-inventing itself (e.g., Granite Run Mall) from death to birth. There has to be a reason to go beside shopping for one or more items because there's a good chance you can get that online from the comfort of your living room.

I think Gallery (cough cough) will do fine because there's enough people and tourists in the area. It's there and it's convenient but if you are more than 5 miles or not living in the city, you are sure as hell not going to go out of your way to shop there.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by Londonee

[*]The Marriott - which i think is the city's largest hotel by room count - is in desperate need of a facelift. The green awnings are ragged and disintegrating. Would love to see this hotel get a refurb and maybe add some digital signs while it's at it.

The Marriott awnings literally have mold growing on them.

Originally Posted by Londonee

[*]I would say 80% of the people on the street are incredibly rough looking. This isn't racial as the folks come in all shapes, sizes, colors. If they weren't in that 80% group, they seemed to be tourists. It's an eerie vacuum of normalcy.

Two words: methadone clinic. Wonder when their lease is up.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
Big shopping malls have to re-invent themselves due to the retail landscapes and online shopping. Many articles out there but here's one:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gregpet.../#7874e55e7221

Like in the suburbs, KOP mall is king of the hill, and all surrounding malls like Springfield Mall, Granite Run Mall, Plymouth Meeting Mall are either dying or in the process of re-inventing itself (e.g., Granite Run Mall) from death to birth. There has to be a reason to go beside shopping for one or more items because there's a good chance you can get that online from the comfort of your living room.

I think Gallery (cough cough) will do fine because there's enough people and tourists in the area. It's there and it's convenient but if you are more than 5 miles or not living in the city, you are sure as hell not going to go out of your way to shop there.

KOP is a destination in itself, which makes it work as a mall. All of the smaller ones, as you point out, are dead or retooling. The problem with the Gallery staying like the Gallery is that tourists weren't enough to save it before. If it becomes a hangout, they will stay away like everyone else and even the halfway decent shops will give way to vacancies or cut rate retail.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^

I think Gallery (cough cough) will do fine because there's enough people and tourists in the area. It's there and it's convenient but if you are more than 5 miles or not living in the city, you are sure as hell not going to go out of your way to shop there.

Why not? Urban shopping in and of itself is a unique experience. Comparing to dead malls in Delco is silly. Walnut Street on weekend is PACKED with day-trippers and bridge and tunnelers coming in to shop, wine and dine. In theory, FD *could* provide a really unique urban shopping experience - much of that depends on cleaning up and addressing some of the stuff I discussed in my previous post. Time will tell, but your "if you are more than 5 miles" sentiment is pretty absurd.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

KOP is a destination in itself, which makes it work as a mall. All of the smaller ones, as you point out, are dead or retooling. The problem with the Gallery staying like the Gallery is that tourists weren't enough to save it before. If it becomes a hangout, they will stay away like everyone else and even the halfway decent shops will give way to vacancies or cut rate retail.

But it's not like what it was before - hence the top to bottom, fully opening up, rolling out $500billion multi-year project? Also, as a suburanite - this mall isn't *really* for you, is it? As a resident this is diversifying my shopping options without the need to get into a car - that's great.

Again, to my other post - urban shopping is in and of itself a unique retail offering when done well. This is the case on Mich Ave, 5th Ave, Newburry, MStreet, Walnut Street, etc. Now, maybe not your cup of tea, but a lot of people enjoy the experience, especially on weekends and during holiday season. And Market East - with the lighted billboards, coupled with other developments like East Market and the potential at 8th and Market, really could provide a unique, exciting visceral shopping experience.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Why not? Urban shopping in and of itself is a unique experience. Comparing to dead malls in Delco is silly. Walnut Street on weekend is PACKED with day-trippers and bridge and tunnelers coming in to shop, wine and dine. In theory, FD *could* provide a really unique urban shopping experience - much of that depends on cleaning up and addressing some of the stuff I discussed in my previous post. Time will tell, but your "if you are more than 5 miles" sentiment is pretty absurd.

No it's not absurd. Nothing special about the line up of those stores in the Gallery that will make people go out of there way. You can go elsewhere to shop at those store based on convenience.

I think it's great they fixed it up, but I don't buy into the hype. It's lipstick on a pig. Most people will see it for that. And, no way you can compare Walnut Street shopping to FD. Different markets, one big mall vs individual stores on multiple city blocks. Walnut Street is like our 5th Ave and FD is like a standard mall (in this case one that died and now is giving a second chance with an update on its infrastructure and stores/restaurants mix). Period.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

No it's not absurd. Nothing special about the line up of those stores in the Gallery that will make people go out of there way. You can go elsewhere to shop at those store based on convenience.

I think it's great they fixed it up, but I don't buy into the hype. It's lipstick on a pig. Most people will see it for that. And, no way you can compare Walnut Street shopping to FD. Different markets, one big mall vs individual stores on multiple city blocks. Walnut Street is like our 5th Ave and FD is like a standard mall (in this case one that died and now is giving a second chance with an update on its infrastructure and stores/restaurants mix). Period.

What are your impressions of the reno'd FD in person?

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Londonee

What are your impressions of the reno'd FD in person?

Exterior wise, I've seen in person, the cladding is fine and improvements to the sidewalks are fine. The "big" glass entrance is nice. Overall, things cleaned up well. Will have to see what the interior looks like when it opens. However, I'm sure the inside will look nice and up to date in today's updated mall standards. The movie theater is a plus. I'm curious to see how they have incorporated that with the layout.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by cardeza

They need stores that will stay open- tried and true common brands meet that criteria. When you are attracting tourist dollars it often pays to have chains/stores they know and love. To make this work you need tourist and teenager money to be spent- those groups are less depressed by the rise of online spending. The mix of retail seems to be catering to those groups- not millenials who likely buy 90% of their goods online anyway.

That alone = fail. However, this place will not just be that. There is a lot of dining, entertainment venues, and experiential places. I think those, moreso than the retail, is geared towards residents. So, hopefully the thing as a whole strikes the right balance and works.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Exterior wise, I've seen in person, the cladding is fine and improvements to the sidewalks are fine. The "big" glass entrance is nice. Overall, things cleaned up well. Will have to see what the interior looks like when it opens. However, I'm sure the inside will look nice and up to date in today's updated mall standards. The movie theater is a plus. I'm curious to see how they have incorporated that with the layout.

It's definitely come a long way - "lipstick on a pig" seems a bit harsh. The lighted billboards will give it a really cool feeling, especially at night. With the entertainment venues and bars/restaurants - it's going to have a more 24/7 vibe to it. The way it greets Market and Filbert is so vastly improved that even just making the comparison seems to understate the difference.

I've been vocally critical of Coradino and PREIT for 15 years - but as it nears completion, it's pretty clear to me that it has a real opportunity to be a sustainable and useful attraction to Center City. The typical nega-delphian reaction is a bummer, as again, not really sure what everyone was really expecting to happen.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Point taken, but, speaking for myself, I don't think that's the point of naysayers. I'm hoping for a handful of "destination" attractions/dining, which retail needs these days. I think the movie theatre and arcade will be that for some. For me, it will be City Winery. I think it needs a few more, like the Eataly that's been discussed. I don't really care as much about the shoppes (although it would be nice to have some non-run-of-the-mill stores to make things interesting). Otherwise it will just be Gallery Redux and a hangout. If they have spent all of the money to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, it might have been better spent on demo and a new concept.

its accessible by public transportation and there arent many malls in the area that are centrally located. It will be a "hangout" no matter what. Teens go to malls and eat and hang out and waste money. Not sure what type of retail mix would change those facts. I assume you are inferring you were hoping it was going to be upscale to the point where teens wouldn't really be welcome- but it was originally called Fashion Outlets of Phila so its been clear for a while that this wasn't an urban K of P.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

KOP is a destination in itself, which makes it work as a mall. All of the smaller ones, as you point out, are dead or retooling. The problem with the Gallery staying like the Gallery is that tourists weren't enough to save it before. If it becomes a hangout, they will stay away like everyone else and even the halfway decent shops will give way to vacancies or cut rate retail.

Tourists and conventioneers are downtown any and every day. Even when teens are in school. I do not foresee hundreds of urban youths stationed inside FDP during the middle of the day for various reasons. Is the issue concern about them being seen or loitering or what? Do you see what's on East Market? Tourists are seeing far worse than "urban" teens that may occasionally patronize the FDP.