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  #61  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 5:36 AM
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Originally Posted by theman23 View Post
I remember being younger and viewing the Ontario sunshine list with envy, just imagining all the nice things those people could buy with their six-figure salary.

Basically every public servant is now on the sunshine list or very close to it. Inflation alone has made that necessary.
I work in the federal public service and envy what Ontario public servants make compared to us for equivalent work. If there was a federal sunshine list, there wouldn't be very many people on it considering how many federal public servants there are.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 6:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
If I could find better data I would have used it. I don't think these numbers are that far off. But if you can do better, go for it.
For all types of housing the median price would definitely be much lower--simple math. I did try and find a median price for Canada but most sources appear to believe that median and mean/average are interchangeable.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 6:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Loco101 View Post
I work in the federal public service and envy what Ontario public servants make compared to us for equivalent work. If there was a federal sunshine list, there wouldn't be very many people on it considering how many federal public servants there are.
If there was a federal sunshine list would you be on it for 2020?
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  #64  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 1:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
The reason we don't impose capital gains on principal residences is to ensure maximum mobility for labour. For example, those of us moving every 3 years in the military would rack up some serious tax bills buying and selling homes every 3 years.

Maybe extend the one year residency requirement to 18 or 24 months. The bigger issue is enforcement. CRA does a shit job enforcing the one year requirement to ensure that people aren't just flipping homes.
Why would someone moving about in the military buy houses rather than renting them? Even so, the average capital gains paid per year would be the same if you sold once a year vs once every ten years, just split into smaller chunks. In fact, if there is any exemption, then the frequent mover would likely pay less.

Capital gains tax on primary residence should act as a dampener on house prices also, with the primary beneficiaries being FTBs. As others have said though, there is lower hanging fruit. Scrap the CMHC.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Loco101 View Post
I work in the federal public service and envy what Ontario public servants make compared to us for equivalent work. If there was a federal sunshine list, there wouldn't be very many people on it considering how many federal public servants there are.
Gotta keep in mind that a lot of provincial public service is based in the GTA. And a lot of the federal public service is based in the NCR. That contributes substantially to the salary difference.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 2:15 PM
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Why would someone moving about in the military buy houses rather than renting them?
So you don't finish a 25 yr career with no equity built. The military used to provide lower cost housing on base. But those are now rented at market rates, which means it's just better to buy in most cases. It's also a way of encouraging good financial planning. Too many cases in the past of a 20 year serviceman claiming poverty after not building up equity but buying all kinds of toys.

You become an expert at buying houses that will sell easily in just a few years too. Everybody in the military has what we call our "forever home". It's the final move where you actually get a house you like instead of one that you know will sell easily. Incidentally that final move is what caused all the shitstorm with General Leslie because the public had no clue.

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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Even so, the average capital gains paid per year would be the same if you sold once a year vs once every ten years, just split into smaller chunks. In fact, if there is any exemption, then the frequent mover would likely pay less.

Capital gains tax on primary residence should act as a dampener on house prices also, with the primary beneficiaries being FTBs. As others have said though, there is lower hanging fruit. Scrap the CMHC.
Good points. It is possible that the burden might be more administrative than financial.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 2:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
So you don't finish a 25 yr career with no equity built. The military used to provide lower cost housing on base. But those are now rented at market rates, which means it's just better to buy in most cases. It's also a way of encouraging good financial planning. Too many cases in the past of a 20 year serviceman claiming poverty after not building up equity but buying all kinds of toys.

You become an expert at buying houses that will sell easily in just a few years too. Everybody in the military has what we call our "forever home". It's the final move where you actually get a house you like instead of one that you know will sell easily. Incidentally that final move is what caused all the shitstorm with General Leslie because the public had no clue.



Good points. It is possible that the burden might be more administrative than financial.
Don't the military get a sweet deal in terms of having their legal and real estate fees paid each time they buy or sell a house in the context of a transfer? In addition to that final kick at the can upon retirement?
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  #68  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 2:25 PM
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Don't the military get a sweet deal in terms of having their legal and real estate fees paid each time they buy or sell a house in the context of a transfer? In addition to that final kick at the can upon retirement?
Yeah, having realtors and legal fees bleed you if you sell every couple of years must suck.

I guess I could see it if one has a family, but if I was single and in the military, renting would be less of a PITA.

I think getting ahead in a mortgage requires one to be there more than a couple of years, unless you're getting price appreciation when you sell.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 3:06 PM
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Don't the military get a sweet deal in terms of having their legal and real estate fees paid each time they buy or sell a house in the context of a transfer? In addition to that final kick at the can upon retirement?
Same package as every public servant (and most of the private sector) that has to move for work. The final move is what I described above. The chance to finally get a home as opposed to a house to live in for 3 years.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 3:08 PM
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Yeah, having realtors and legal fees bleed you if you sell every couple of years must suck.
Exactly why they are covered.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Zmonkey View Post
What's the point? You tax the top 20 % of homeowners a small amount and give credit to everyone else. The government loses money.

You also have complicated the filing for every homeowner and need a larger team to audit.

If the goal is raise revenue, there are many better ways. Is there a reason you want to tax primary residences?

Capital gains now is almost nothing for the government. It brings in about 4.5 billion of the close to 325 billion in taxes the feds receive. The goal of the government is to get income higher to collect income taxes, which is the bulk of where our government receives money.

Just look at the programs around housing which cost the government money.

-First time buyers credit
-Using RRSP's tax free for home purchase
-GST/HST credit on new home purchases (including rental construction)
-Seniors tax credits
-Renovating tax credits for seniors

Eliminate those credits the government has saved billions. Housing will get more expensive (both rentals and purchasing), but government has more money.
We have to look at asset taxes more, as those will impact the truly wealthy, who aren't really paying their fare share. The middle class wage earners, as usual, are asked to pay the brunt of taxes. Money can freely flow around the world easily now, and it is certainly being dumped into Canadian real estate.

I'm not sure how this can be so complicated in your view if we already deal with capital gains for virtually everything else.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
The problem with that is that people will then jack up their price, which means housing prices only get higher.

What really needs to happen is the property tax reflect the sale price of the property. This would mean that buying a million dollar home would actually be a bad thing for you and your neighbourhood.
That's not really how the free market works.

Property taxes are based on mill rates for a reason. Setting a rate based directly on value would destabilize local government revenue and lead to some weird behaviours.

I do think property taxes should have marginal rate brackets similar to income taxes though.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
We have to look at asset taxes more, as those will impact the truly wealthy, who aren't really paying their fair share. The middle class wage earners, as usual, are asked to pay the brunt of taxes. Money can freely flow around the world easily now, and it is certainly being dumped into Canadian real estate.

I'm not sure how this can be so complicated in your view if we already deal with capital gains for virtually everything else.
The middle class do not pay the brunt of taxes in Canada, its the top 20%. They pay 55% of all taxes and make 42% of the money. The share of taxes the middle 60 is paying is declining because of tax credits.

Both Liberals and Conservatives have seen to this, and provincially we have raised income taxes on higher-income earners in most provinces. The bottom 40% of Canadians now pay no income taxes, that number was the bottom 25% a decade ago - again happening because of tax credits and child care benefits.

But sure we can tax assets more. Put in land transfer taxes and HST/GST on purchases. It will increase home prices and rents, but that will happen when you tax assets more.

And look at my capital gains numbers above, yes we tax capital gains. and the revenue it brings in is a rounding error. Income taxes and GST is where our government makes money.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 5:06 PM
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We have to look at asset taxes more, as those will impact the truly wealthy, who aren't really paying their fare share. The middle class wage earners, as usual, are asked to pay the brunt of taxes.
I would like to see how you define "the truly wealthy"

As an independently employed professional, I have no pension, and the assertion that RRSPs and TFSAs can fund a 30-35 year retirement is laughable. This is why I have a professional corporation for retirement savings (and this has already been kneecapped by Trudeau and Morneau).

And now you want to tax my assets (which I have accumulated using post tax income)?

As ZMonkey said above, the top income earners already pay the vast majority of taxes, while 40% of Canadians pay no tax whatsoever.

At what point will you actually kill the goose that laid the golden egg............
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  #75  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Zmonkey View Post
The middle class do not pay the brunt of taxes in Canada, its the top 20%. They pay 55% of all taxes and make 42% of the money. The share of taxes the middle 60 is paying is declining because of tax credits.

Both Liberals and Conservatives have seen to this, and provincially we have raised income taxes on higher-income earners in most provinces. The bottom 40% of Canadians now pay no income taxes, that number was the bottom 25% a decade ago - again happening because of tax credits and child care benefits.

But sure we can tax assets more. Put in land transfer taxes and HST/GST on purchases. It will increase home prices and rents, but that will happen when you tax assets more.

And look at my capital gains numbers above, yes we tax capital gains. and the revenue it brings in is a rounding error. Income taxes and GST is where our government makes money.
I should not have used "middle class", but more "wage earners". It's the top 1% that are not covering their fair share IMO. Capital gains inclusion was dropped to 50%, perhaps it needs to go back up.

GST should be higher, but income taxes are high enough.

Where are you suggesting we get additional tax revenue? I'd like to focus on the high wealth individuals first.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 5:20 PM
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And now you want to tax my assets (which I have accumulated using post tax income)?
But presumably you got a return on your investments too. If you earn $1M and invest it so it grows to $2M it is entirely accurate to describe that merely as earnings that were already subject to income tax. The stuff outside of the TFSA or RRSP will be subject to capital gains.

In any case anybody who is in the upper income tax brackets and pays that on the bulk or entirety of their income is somebody who is paying a relatively large tax burden in Canada. Wealth taxes should not be directed at this group, or if they are they should come along with reductions in income tax.

One problem with incomes taxes is they are already so high that in the upper brackets they seriously reduce the benefit of earning more employment income. In Nova Scotia it hits 54% around $215,000 a year (worst income tax rate in Canada, although many others are around 50%), then if you take that money and buy something you're hit with another 15%.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I would like to see how you define "the truly wealthy"

As an independently employed professional, I have no pension, and the assertion that RRSPs and TFSAs can fund a 30-35 year retirement is laughable. This is why I have a professional corporation for retirement savings (and this has already been kneecapped by Trudeau and Morneau).

And now you want to tax my assets (which I have accumulated using post tax income)?

As ZMonkey said above, the top income earners already pay the vast majority of taxes, while 40% of Canadians pay no tax whatsoever.

At what point will you actually kill the goose that laid the golden egg............
Top 2% Canadians? What difference does it make?

How would you propose we pay for the COVID19 bill?
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  #78  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 5:22 PM
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But presumably you got a return on your investments too. If you earn $1M and invest it so it grows to $2M it is entirely accurate to describe that merely as earnings that were already subject to income tax.

However I think anybody who is in the upper income tax brackets and pays that on the bulk or entirety of their income is somebody who is paying a relatively large tax burden in Canada. Wealth taxes should not be directed at this group, or if they are they should come along with reductions in income tax.
The local Vancouver idea of a massive property tax that would also function as a non-refundable income tax credit was an interesting one.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 5:25 PM
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Top 2% Canadians? What difference does it make?

How would you propose we pay for the COVID19 bill?
I'm already paying. My billings are down by about 50% because elective procedures have been cancelled.

And how dare you say "what difference does it make." That's pretty damned flippant and dismissive of you. But, I guess as long as you're not in the 2%, it doesn't matter to you, does it............
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  #80  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2020, 5:30 PM
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I'm already paying. My billings are down by about 50% because elective procedures have been cancelled.

And how dare you say "what difference does it make." That's pretty damned flippant and dismissive of you. But, I guess as long as you're not in the 2%, it doesn't matter to you, does it............
One thing to keep in mind is that wealth tends to scale up very dramatically in the upper percentiles. The top 2% is well off, sure, but nothing like the top 0.1% or 0.001%.

The top 100 or so families in Canada have more wealth than the bottom 12 million or so.

"The 1%" was always a stupid slogan. Most of the top 1% is wealthy professionals or small-to-medium business owners, who have peanuts compared to the ultra-wealthy. $9M gets you into the top 1% in Canada while the wealthiest family is over $30B now. $9M is certainly comfortable but you're not living in a mansion on a Caribbean island and flying around in a private jet. And you make have personally worked very hard providing a lot of social value to get that money, while the billionaire families are often more like "dynasties" of random children who are given C-level titles, board positions, and billions of dollars.
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