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  #1821  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 3:48 PM
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The surface option is arguably more future-proofed as well. Running LRT on Wellington keeps the door open to extending the line back to Gatineau across the soon-to-be-rebuilt Alexandra Bridge. According to the STO, the tunnel option doesn't easily allow for future expansion.

J.OT13 put it well in the Ott-Gat subforum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
My concern, with the tunnel, is capacity. I know this seems counter-intuitive.

The system will be at street-level for most of its route, so no matter if it's street level or underground downtown will have no impact on capacity.

However, say we have 50 meter platforms running 48 meter Spirits every 2 minutes. Capacity would be 9000 per hour per direction. The problem is, there is just one direction. All traffic originating from Gatineau is coming through the tunnel and ending at Parliament before the train turns back with a handful of Ottawa passengers heading to Hull.

Should we choose the Wellington option, if/when a loop is built, full trains from Gatineau would be coming from both directions, still 9000 phpd, but now with two directions, so the capacity of the line is now up to 18,000 total. This future-proofs the downtown portion to allow for multiple Gatineau lines coming in.

It's like cutting off one of the branches of the Yonge-University Line in Toronto. Yonge terminates at Union and the University branch is never built. Capacity is halved.

Moreover, I think that we armchair transit planners have a tendency to forget that a transit system is more than just a collection of infrastructure speed and capacity metrics. They are also works of urban design, for better or worse. A surface line is an opportunity to massively improve the look and feel of the Parliamentary precinct. Currently, Parliament fronts a dull and noisy five-lane road. We have better streets in front of McDonald drive-thru's than we do for one of our most important national institutions. This is an opportunity to completely re-evaluate that.

Barcelona also has a Wellington Street which mirrors many of the elements in the STO's surface option: wide sidewalks, limited vehicular traffic, and enough soil volume to allow for mature trees. If we could get our Wellington Street to look this good, it would massively improve the quality of our downtown and the image of the entire Parliamentary precinct.


Calle Wellington, Barcelona

sftrajan



I'm not saying that urban design matters and infrastructure metrics don't. But I'd argue that in many cases, it matters a whole lot. In the case of Wellington, the infrastructure advantage of a tunnel is debatable (the tunnel offers better reliability, but worse walk times and capacity future-proofing) and the urban design and cost advantages of a surface option are tremendous. To me, that's a pretty compelling case for a surface option.
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Last edited by Aylmer; Jun 24, 2020 at 4:04 PM.
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  #1822  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2020, 3:14 AM
scryer scryer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I'm torn. Underground would provide the best link between the STO and Confederation Lines, but a tramway on Wellington would introduce a new type of service to downtown and could be the start to the long discussed interprovincial loop. That could still be possible with the tunnel, but the City of Gatineau seems to only be considering this for the surface option.
Well I bet that one of the reasons Gatineau is only considering the surface option is that they will want Ottawa to pay more of a portion for the construction of the tunnel .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
The surface option is arguably more future-proofed as well. Running LRT on Wellington keeps the door open to extending the line back to Gatineau across the soon-to-be-rebuilt Alexandra Bridge. According to the STO, the tunnel option doesn't easily allow for future expansion.
I don't necessarily think that's the case though. And I really hate to say it (because we honestly study the fuck out of everything infrastructure in Canada) but I think that a small study should be made on the future extension of the Gatineau line in Ottawa with both the at-grade street integrated version and how a tunneled extension eastwards would look.

I am confident that we possess the technological means to achieve an eastward tunnel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
Moreover, I think that we armchair transit planners have a tendency to forget that a transit system is more than just a collection of infrastructure speed and capacity metrics. They are also works of urban design, for better or worse. A surface line is an opportunity to massively improve the look and feel of the Parliamentary precinct. Currently, Parliament fronts a dull and noisy five-lane road. We have better streets in front of McDonald drive-thru's than we do for one of our most important national institutions. This is an opportunity to completely re-evaluate that.
I think that the alignment with no vehicular traffic on Wellington street won't be realized because it looks like Wellington is a main vehicular street that connects people from Gatineau to downtown Ottawa. You won't be able to win with the voters over with that particular alignment since you are funneling a large proportion of vehicular traffic into Bay Street and Lyon street. Wellington street is not going to become Sparks street because it is too vital for vehicle traffic. However I would be pleasantly surprised if the governments decided otherwise.

If you want an example of good city-scaping, Victoria's Government street surrounding the harbour is a great example of beautifying an important heritage area. It needs a better upgrade now but at the moment it still handles higher tourist numbers very well.

When it comes to revitalizing streets: there is nothing stopping the city of Ottawa from widening sidewalks, installing protected bike lanes, or adding more greenery to Wellington street to breathe new life into it that is more pedestrian friendly. Beautification does not need to be driven by a transit expansion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
I'm not saying that urban design matters and infrastructure metrics don't. But I'd argue that in many cases, it matters a whole lot. In the case of Wellington, the infrastructure advantage of a tunnel is debatable (the tunnel offers better reliability, but worse walk times and capacity future-proofing) and the urban design and cost advantages of a surface option are tremendous. To me, that's a pretty compelling case for a surface option.
Urban beautification should only be a valued by-product of transit development; not the focus.

Transit development should be convenient and reliable before all else. An LRT system sharing the road with vehicular traffic on an extremely busy arterial in Ottawa diminishes the point of transit since you can still have traffic jams that interfere with the LRT system (if it's integrated with traffic). By tunneling the Gatineau LRT in Ottawa, you not only avoid a busy arterial but you can also connect it directly with the O-Train's underground stations, making the system even more valuable and versatile.

My opinion on this is completely contingent upon how each option would be able to get extended further east though as I can definitely see how it could be easier to extend a surface line east. Although with both options, it would get messy around the Murray/St.Patricks/Alexandra bridge. And I am still adamant that an extended tunnel heading east of Parliament station shouldn't be written off so easily.

For the record: I am all about designing cities for people, not cars. However I just can't deny the existence of predominant vehicle traffic and its place within a city.
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Last edited by scryer; Jun 28, 2020 at 12:27 PM.
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  #1823  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2020, 4:06 AM
Hybrid247 Hybrid247 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scryer View Post
When it comes to revitalizing streets: there is nothing stopping the city of Ottawa from widening sidewalks, installing protected bike lanes, or adding more greenery to Wellington street to breathe new life into it that is more pedestrian friendly. Beautification does not need to be driven by a transit expansion.

Urban beautification should be only be a valued by-product of transit development; not the focus.

Transit development should be convenient and reliable before all else. An LRT system sharing the road with vehicular traffic on an extremely busy arterial in Ottawa diminishes the point of transit since you can still have traffic jams that interfere with the LRT system (if it's integrated with traffic). By tunneling the Gatineau LRT in Ottawa, you not only avoid a busy arterial but you can also connect it directly with the O-Train's underground stations, making the system even more valuable and versatile.

My opinion on this is completely contingent upon how each option would be able to get extended further east though as I can definitely see how it could be easier to extend a surface line east. Although with both options, it would get messy around the Murray/St.Patricks/Alexandra bridge. And I am still adamant that an extended tunnel heading east of Parliament station shouldn't be written off so easily.

For the record: I am all about designing cities for people, not cars. However I just can't deny the existence of predominant vehicle traffic and its place within a city.
I fully agree on all the above points. I think a few Ottawa-Gatineau forumers prefer the surface option partly because it will add a cool new urban look to downtown, but that shouldn't be a deciding factor in what option gets selected. As you mentioned, I don't think an eastern extension of the tunnel towards Alexandra bridge can be precluded until a proper study is conducted. It'll be interesting to see how this process moves forward to get an idea of what the STO and City of Gatineau prefer as an option, and whether the feds might be willing to fund the tunnel.

On a side note, the thought of having Gatineau trams passing in front of Parliament instead of Ottawa trams seems odd to me. Of course, if it were Ottawa trains they would sport the red and white maple leaf theme which would fit nicely into national capital vibe. STO trains, however, would never adopt such a look.
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  #1824  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2020, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Was the 2026 FIFA World Cup one of the deciding factors in rebuilding Stadium Station?
I suppose there could be some tie to it, but it simply was outdated and did not function well.
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  #1825  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2020, 7:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scryer View Post
Well I bet that one of the reasons Gatineau is only considering the surface option is that they will want Ottawa to pay more of a portion for the construction of the tunnel .

I don't necessarily think that's the case though. And I really hate to say it (because we honestly study the fuck out of everything infrastructure in Canada) but I think that a small study should be made on the future extension of the Gatineau line in Ottawa with both the at-grade street integrated version and how a tunneled extension eastwards would look.

I am confident that we possess the technological means to achieve an eastward tunnel.

I think that the alignment with no vehicular traffic on Wellington street won't be realized because it looks like Wellington is a main vehicular street that connects people from Gatineau to downtown Ottawa. You won't be able to win with the voters over with that particular alignment since you are funneling a large proportion of vehicular traffic into Bay Street and Lyon street. Wellington street is not going to become Sparks street because it is too vital for vehicle traffic. However I would be pleasantly surprised if the governments decided otherwise.

If you want an example of good city-scaping, Victoria's Government street surrounding the harbour is a great example of beautifying an important heritage area. It needs a better upgrade now but at the moment it still handles higher tourist numbers very well.

When it comes to revitalizing streets: there is nothing stopping the city of Ottawa from widening sidewalks, installing protected bike lanes, or adding more greenery to Wellington street to breathe new life into it that is more pedestrian friendly. Beautification does not need to be driven by a transit expansion.

Urban beautification should only be a valued by-product of transit development; not the focus.

Transit development should be convenient and reliable before all else. An LRT system sharing the road with vehicular traffic on an extremely busy arterial in Ottawa diminishes the point of transit since you can still have traffic jams that interfere with the LRT system (if it's integrated with traffic). By tunneling the Gatineau LRT in Ottawa, you not only avoid a busy arterial but you can also connect it directly with the O-Train's underground stations, making the system even more valuable and versatile.

My opinion on this is completely contingent upon how each option would be able to get extended further east though as I can definitely see how it could be easier to extend a surface line east. Although with both options, it would get messy around the Murray/St.Patricks/Alexandra bridge. And I am still adamant that an extended tunnel heading east of Parliament station shouldn't be written off so easily.

For the record: I am all about designing cities for people, not cars. However I just can't deny the existence of predominant vehicle traffic and its place within a city.
The City of Ottawa is already planning a partial rebuild of Wellington to add bike lanes, and that's part of the STO's dilemma; how to fit trams, wider sidewalks, bike lanes and cars (if the option that maintains car traffic is chosen).

Accidents between cars and trams should not be an issue if Wellington is chosen because the trams maintain their exclusive RoW and there are no turns where rail tracks and traffic lanes would cross.

What the STO needs to realize is that, with either option, a loop is absolutely necessary to future-proof capacity. So while they are not considering it at the moment for the tunnel option, I'd like to think that will change.
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  #1826  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2020, 11:49 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Those of us that know history know that Bloor and Yonge both had streetcar lines that once they opened up the subway, they ripped up the tracks. While Eglinton, Finch and other LRT are a good idea, I wonder how long till they get to be too crowded and the city sees it's error. Or, maybe they decide that a route could have a subway and LRT/Streetcar line.
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  #1827  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2020, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Those of us that know history know that Bloor and Yonge both had streetcar lines that once they opened up the subway, they ripped up the tracks. While Eglinton, Finch and other LRT are a good idea, I wonder how long till they get to be too crowded and the city sees it's error. Or, maybe they decide that a route could have a subway and LRT/Streetcar line.
Well Eglinton is built in a tunnel for 2/3s of its route, so while it is an LRT, that portion of the line could be upgraded to something a little more if required down the line. But based on the density in the far flung suburbs, I don't see that being an issue for a long, long time.
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  #1828  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 1:20 AM
ClaytonA ClaytonA is offline
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Elevated sections of REM are progressing south of downtown;

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaktShMW...name=4096x4096

and on the West Island in Kirkland;

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbyCJgGX...name=4096x4096
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  #1829  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2020, 7:31 PM
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Work on Ottawa's airport spur late last month.

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