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  #2881  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
That's not downtown.

So it's a residential area? I was so easily fooled.
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  #2882  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 12:31 AM
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I'm on the side of the progressives of history btw. But if history teaches us, these progressive (sjw) ideas are the ones that will take over, or we can hope that it's only a trend that will go away like the hippy movement. Do they still make bell bottoms?
The utter incoherence of SJW ideology should ensure that the edifice they're attempting to build will collapse under the weight of its own idiocy. For that not to happen would require the great mushy middle of society to be collectively lobotomized into placidly accepting things like 37 genders and the original sin of European whiteness, along with the massive administrative and judicial bureaucracy required to police thoughtcrime, in which case we would be well and truly fucked.

I'm an optimist, though. I think the liberal legacy of the West is robust enough to sustain itself through our current era.
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  #2883  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 12:32 AM
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So it's a residential area? I was so easily fooled.
It's a business district separate from downtown. Zoom out and look at St. Louise in satellite view.
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  #2884  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Architype View Post
Unrelated to the topic of this thread, but it's amazing how the downtown just suddenly ends with apparent single family housing just across the street. Do we have that anywhere in Canada?

https://goo.gl/maps/4VDZ12YHtqY8dZtB7
The Prairies, arguably.
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  #2885  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Architype View Post
I'm on the side of the progressives of history btw. But if history teaches us, these progressive (sjw) ideas are the ones that will take over, or we can hope that it's only a trend that will go away like the hippy movement. Do they still make bell bottoms?
Hippies did provoke quite a few political and societal changes.

Then when they got prosperous and middle-aged they liked the comfort a lot, and veered to the right. Supporting Reagan in the US, Thatcher in the UK...
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Last edited by Acajack; Jul 1, 2020 at 12:53 AM.
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  #2886  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
The utter incoherence of SJW ideology should ensure that the edifice they're attempting to build will collapse under the weight of its own idiocy. For that not to happen would require the great mushy middle of society to be collectively lobotomized into placidly accepting things like 37 genders and the original sin of European whiteness, along with the massive administrative and judicial bureaucracy required to police thoughtcrime, in which case we would be well and truly fucked.

I'm an optimist, though. I think the liberal legacy of the West is robust enough to sustain itself through our current era.
I wonder if we just become more conservative with age and our social perspective is gone, or if the good ideas will eventually float to the top while the idiocy sinks to the bottom.
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  #2887  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 1:54 AM
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I wonder if we just become more conservative with age and our social perspective is gone, or if the good ideas will eventually float to the top while the idiocy sinks to the bottom.
Indeed, I suspect the latter.

The hippies promoted free love and dropping acid too. I'm not seeing those remnants much today. Talking about 'free love' and preaching the gospel of Timothy Leary today would get you rolling of the eyes and a reminder that the '60s are over.

BLM is part of the continuum of improving the lives of minorities. They promote conversations - if unpleasant - about policing, mental illness and being on the wrong side of the history books. To wit: Look at the paths this thread has followed.

Sure, they promote extreme (and unrealistic IMO) ideas, but I suspect that those are simply the 'attention getters', and few of their members have any taste for a world without police, with the exception of wild-eyed dreamers or anarchists.

That being said, the funhouse mirror of social media distorts things and I have a strong caution for using it as a gauge of realistic public opinion. Nor would I recommend it as a place to have an insightful and purposeful conversation because its bandwidth doesn't suit that. It's a mob without a face and an entertainment source. Use it as such and you won't be disappointed.
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  #2888  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 2:14 AM
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Years ago at a concert in Winnipeg (friend went) Billy Bragg said that Minnesota was the most "Canadian-like" place there was in the US. It was wrong then, and it's obviously even more wrong now.
Growing up in Thunder Bay, I’ve spent a lot of time in Minnesota and there’s truth to Billy’s statement. There is a Scandinavian liberal influence as well, which resonates a bit with the Canadian vibe. They love hockey maybe as much as we do. Minneapolis is exceptionally friendly for a fair-sized city. This all lives alongside the high degree of anti-black racism and some very redneck, Trumpian elements.
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  #2889  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 2:52 AM
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Years ago at a concert in Winnipeg (friend went) Billy Bragg said that Minnesota was the most "Canadian-like" place there was in the US. It was wrong then, and it's obviously even more wrong now.
I wouldn't say it's inaccurate at all. 99.9% of Minnesota could easily pass for Canada. The only exceptions I can really think of are North Minneapolis and the Mayo Clinic part of Rochester. Maybe there are a couple of others. It feels like home way more than any other part of the US I've ever been to.
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  #2890  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 4:22 AM
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I think the superficial similarities between Canada and/or Manitoba and Minnesota are overshadowed by the differences. I ranted about this several years ago: https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...36#post6854136

Jesse "The Body" Ventura was once governor of Minnesota. That alone pretty much makes it impossible for Minnesota to be anything like Canada.
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  #2891  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 6:14 AM
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Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
The hippies promoted free love and dropping acid too. I'm not seeing those remnants much today.
Wait...what? Free love and drug use are two of the most enduring legacies of the tectonic cultural shifts of the late 1960s. It used to be that teenagers couldn't be alone without a chaperone, and the vast majority of people had their first full sexual experience either on their wedding night or very close to it. Any intoxicating substance other than alcohol was so taboo that discovery of an addiction (aside from alcoholism) would bring your social standing in the community crashing down.

People who view the changes wrought by the 1960s negatively would be the first to tell you that practically every aspect of the hippy program was absorbed into mainstream society by the mid-1970s.
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  #2892  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 10:36 AM
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Wait...what? Free love and drug use are two of the most enduring legacies of the tectonic cultural shifts of the late 1960s. It used to be that teenagers couldn't be alone without a chaperone, and the vast majority of people had their first full sexual experience either on their wedding night or very close to it. Any intoxicating substance other than alcohol was so taboo that discovery of an addiction (aside from alcoholism) would bring your social standing in the community crashing down.

People who view the changes wrought by the 1960s negatively would be the first to tell you that practically every aspect of the hippy program was absorbed into mainstream society by the mid-1970s.
The hippies weren't an organized group with a coherent programme, and they didn't make up all (or even most) of the counterculture at the time. Many ideas that the hippies embraced (e.g., utopian socialism) never really caught on (see Rochdale College). Hippies were primarily middle class students playing revolution. They may have brought radical ideas back to the white-picket-fence scene, but their role in articulating and implementing social change is really overstated here.

Social mores around sex had started loosening up long before the 1960s. Taboos surrounding premarital sex were already loosening up in the 1920s, enabled by the increasing availability of contraception. Change was especially hastened during the social upheavals that accompanied WWII. By the time oral contraception had become available in the early 1960s, premarital sex was already pretty common, though not necessarily equally so across all social groups.

I'm not sure where your ideas about intoxicants are coming from. Heroin and cocaine were notoriously easy to come by in the early 20th Century and much more socially acceptable than they later became. By mid-century, barbiturates, benzodiazipines and amphetamines were in widespread use (and widely abused). Hallucinogens were admittedly more fringe before the 1960s, and LSD wasn't readily available for civilian use until after its patents had expired in 1963. The War on Drugs as we know it didn't really start until the 1970s, perhaps in part a response to the hippie element, but more so due to racial tensions in the US. I would also argue that addiction has actually become much more pathologized and stigmatized in the meantime.

A lot did change in the 1960s. It changed in part because people worked to make it change—people who didn't really fit the hippie mold, including those who were already working toward women's rights and civil rights. It changed in response to history and to the world's evolving material conditions: two profoundly disruptive world wars, the rise of the middle class, mass-produced plastics, the evolution of modernist thought and aesthetic, the slow introduction of South and East Asian philosophies and practices to the Western mainstream (however misunderstood they might've been), the rapid collapse of colonial empire—the list could go on and on.

It's important to note though: Although the role the hippies played was peripheral to those vast changes, it was absolutely not peripheral to the conservative North American establishment's experience of those changes (and, by extension, how they interpreted and mythologized those changes after the fact).
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  #2893  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
The marches happened in US vass... "strategic partners".
I *did* notice there were no marches in Russia (AFAIK).
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  #2894  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
The utter incoherence of SJW ideology should ensure that the edifice they're attempting to build will collapse under the weight of its own idiocy. For that not to happen would require the great mushy middle of society to be collectively lobotomized into placidly accepting things like 37 genders and the original sin of European whiteness, along with the massive administrative and judicial bureaucracy required to police thoughtcrime, in which case we would be well and truly fucked.

I'm an optimist, though. I think the liberal legacy of the West is robust enough to sustain itself through our current era.
You're scapegoating all the faults of the left on the SJW's. They are a symptom of the philosophical limitations of modern leftism.

You can't build a worthwhile philosophy out of pleasure seeking. The left wing definition of good is more or less tied to how much dopamine/serotonin /etc is seeping through someone's mind.

People being addicted to cell phones/pharmies, and spending all day in their basement buying video games/etc is exactly what the system wants and is getting.


The SJW movement is a tangent off of two basic marketing premises. I want to sell to all people therefore I want everyone included, and I want to sell everything(all cultures) to everyone.
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  #2895  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 12:03 PM
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You're scapegoating all the faults of the left on the SJW's. They are a symptom of the philosophical limitations of modern leftism.

You can't build a worthwhile philosophy out of pleasure seeking. The left wing definition of good is more or less tied to how much dopamine/serotonin /etc is seeping through someone's mind.

People being addicted to cell phones/pharmies, and spending all day in their basement buying video games/etc is exactly what the system wants and is getting.


The SJW movement is a tangent off of two basic marketing premises. I want to sell to all people therefore I want everyone included, and I want to sell everything(all cultures) to everyone.
I have long suspected that the strong anti-nationalism wasn't simply a virtuous desire for greater fraternity among the world's peoples across borders.

Global corporate interests don't want a world of *citizens* (loyal to countries or nations), they want a world where our only identities are as *consumers*.
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Still a really nice group of people to spend Christmas dinner with, though.
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  #2896  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 12:26 PM
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The idea that history inherently favours fluidity (i.e. a general lack of concern on matters sexual, ethnic or otherwise inherent) is pretty flawed.

Fluidity comes with wealth, urbanization and something like public agnosticism.

In the early tenth century, Baghdad was the site of such a flowering. Women entered previously male professions in great numbers, entertainers gained enormous fame and wealth and sexual matters became the subject of individual choice. The caliphs, sounding like Pat Buchanan, decried the whole thing, but they were figures of fun. It wasn't even two generations before women couldn't walk the streets unescorted.

In the fifteenth century, the Mameluke Empire of Egypt and Syria enjoyed a similar circumstance, but by 1517 it was an Ottoman possession.

Much less exotically, we might look at Iran in 1978 vs. 1979. I wonder if anyone ever shouted at their wife for her reluctance to wear the veil, and said "damnit, Nahid, it's 1980! In this day and age a woman covers her shame". It would have been accurate, if unkind.

The brides of ISIS grew up in many cases on Disney movies.

This forum celebrates the great city and that sort of loose cosmopolitanism is part of that archetype. But it is vulnerable to both religious revelation and collapses in public order.

It is historically pretty limited to speak of "conservatives" and "progressives" as these are arguably just two sub-groupings of modern (small-l) liberalism.

Nothing is inexorable. Nothing is automatic. Every value exists in tension with others, and depends on complex circumstances to flourish.
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  #2897  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
The idea that history inherently favours fluidity (i.e. a general lack of concern on matters sexual, ethnic or otherwise inherent) is pretty flawed.

Fluidity comes with wealth, urbanization and something like public agnosticism.

In the early tenth century, Baghdad was the site of such a flowering. Women entered previously male professions in great numbers, entertainers gained enormous fame and wealth and sexual matters became the subject of individual choice. The caliphs, sounding like Pat Buchanan, decried the whole thing, but they were figures of fun. It wasn't even two generations before women couldn't walk the streets unescorted.

In the fifteenth century, the Mameluke Empire of Egypt and Syria enjoyed a similar circumstance, but by 1517 it was an Ottoman posession.

Much less exotically, we might look at Iran in 1978 vs. 1979. I wonder if anyone ever shouted at their wife for her reluctance to wear the veil, and said "damnit, Nahid, it's 1980! In this day and age a woman covers her shame". It would have been accurate, if unkind.

The brides of ISIS grew up in many cases on Disney movies.

This forum celebrates the great city and that sort of loose cosmopolitanism is part of that archetype. But it is vulnerable to both religious revelation and collapses in public order.

It is historically pretty limited to speak of "conservatives" and "progressives" as these are arguably just two sub-groupings of modern (small-l) liberalism.

Nothing is inexorable. Nothing is automatic. Every value exists in tension with others, and depends on complex circumstances to flourish.

I'm a firm believer a sexually liberal society occurs when the rich dominate society.

The debate we are currently having isn't new.

The Romans struggled with the conflict between hedonistic and stoic behavior.

The fundamental flaw with a society driven by pleasure/hedonism is that inequality isn't just a statistical fact but that it becomes intertwined with moral facts.

If pleasure is good, and the rich have more pleasure therefore the rich are the problem as they are hoarding good for themselves.

If a wealthy man is able to have more sexual partners women are forgotten about past 30, and regular men are ignored altogether.

Sexual morals create equality of well being.


But mentioning the hypergamy that occurs in a polyamorous society is apparently alt right propaganda.


It is both incredibly ironic and yet not at all that the people creating the most social inequality wealthy liberals are the ones antagonizing the people at the bottom who have the most valid reason to be pissed off.
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  #2898  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 2:10 PM
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I think the superficial similarities between Canada and/or Manitoba and Minnesota are overshadowed by the differences. I ranted about this several years ago: https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...36#post6854136

Jesse "The Body" Ventura was once governor of Minnesota. That alone pretty much makes it impossible for Minnesota to be anything like Canada.
OK fine, but in the post I specifically responded to, you were calling out Billy Bragg for saying that Minnesota was the most "Canadian-like" place there was in the US. I'm saying that he's right, even if on the whole Minnesota is not exactly like Canada in every regard.

And for what it's worth, I would have believed your point about Jesse Ventura right up until the time that Rob Ford became mayor of Canada's largest city.
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  #2899  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 3:55 PM
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Indeed, I suspect the latter.

The hippies promoted free love and dropping acid too. I'm not seeing those remnants much today. Talking about 'free love' and preaching the gospel of Timothy Leary today would get you rolling of the eyes and a reminder that the '60s are over.

BLM is part of the continuum of improving the lives of minorities. They promote conversations - if unpleasant - about policing, mental illness and being on the wrong side of the history books. To wit: Look at the paths this thread has followed.

Sure, they promote extreme (and unrealistic IMO) ideas, but I suspect that those are simply the 'attention getters', and few of their members have any taste for a world without police, with the exception of wild-eyed dreamers or anarchists.

That being said, the funhouse mirror of social media distorts things and I have a strong caution for using it as a gauge of realistic public opinion. Nor would I recommend it as a place to have an insightful and purposeful conversation because its bandwidth doesn't suit that. It's a mob without a face and an entertainment source. Use it as such and you won't be disappointed.
I think like many radical movements it risks alienating the mainstream middle class and fizzling out, the way all the genocide talk killed progress on MMW or McCarthyism killed the anti-communist movement. I think most people agree that certain elements of the police are out of control and want action taken, but they want a cop to show up at their door when they call 911. The further risk is that the echo chamber of activists and people that did _____ Studies in university listen to nobody but each other, probably further alienating them from mainstream society.
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  #2900  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 4:12 PM
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I think like many radical movements it risks alienating the mainstream middle class and fizzling out, the way all the genocide talk killed progress on MMW or McCarthyism killed the anti-communist movement. I think most people agree that certain elements of the police are out of control and want action taken, but they want a cop to show up at their door when they call 911. The further risk is that the echo chamber of activists and people that did _____ Studies in university listen to nobody but each other, probably further alienating them from mainstream society.
You're right. As kool m. put it recently, any reasonable person will agree with the proposition that Black Lives Matter. And in the Canadian context, you could also add Indigenous Lives Matter. I'd imagine that people would support efforts to make the justice system fairer, to promote equal opportunities for those in historically disadvantaged communities, etc.

The problem is that the initial successes stirred up a frenzy of fringe ideas like the whole "Defund the Police" thing. I mean, I'm sure people would support carving off some police funding to provide increased mental health resources, help for those with addictions, etc. But the activists calling for abolition of police are living in an undergraduate's dream world. No actual grown up would take that seriously. And as the ideas coming from the echo chamber get more extreme, dumber and more alienating to broad swaths of the population, the more the movement consigns itself to irrelevance.
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