Coyotes Coming to Halifax?

[JHikka]

False. The NHL is going through the same procedure that they did back in the early 2000's so Canada could keep Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa. If "Bettman" had not have been so forward on wanting to keep the teams there they wouldn't still be there today.

You're being washed by Canadian Media.

[phrenic]

I'm not saying Gary hasn't been Canada's friend in the past. He has.

I'm saying he's being a dick to Jim Balsillie, Hamilton and all of Canada's die-hard fans about the Coyotes for the sake of keeping them in a market that doesn't support them.

Phoenix is a city of 4.5 million people. That's more than Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa combined. If they can't support the Coyotes then they don't deserve to have them.

.

[q12]

Originally Posted by phrenic

I'm not saying Gary hasn't been Canada's friend in the past. He has.

I'm saying he's being a dick to Jim Balsillie, Hamilton and all of Canada's die-hard fans about the Coyotes for the sake of keeping them in a market that doesn't support them.

Phoenix is a city of 4.5 million people. That's more than Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa combined. If they can't support the Coyotes then they don't deserve to have them.

Amen to that.

[JHikka]

Phoenix has the fastest growing youth hockey market in the United States and one of the largest, I believe only Minnesota has a larger hockey system overall.

Gary is being a dick to Jim because Jim has been trying to get a team through the improper means of purchasing a team. Selling assets in accordance with a team (IE, Tickets) of a team that you do not even own does not bode well for a future owner. How do you think the Board of Governors view Jim? I'm assuming not very favorably.

The market can support them, they have just had terrible ownership.

[q12]

New study: Halifax doesn't make NHL cut

MATTHEW WUEST, METRO HALIFAX
Published: April 13, 2011 3:56 p.m.
Last modified: April 13, 2011 3:58 p.m.

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/loca...t-make-nhl-cut

A new study all but wipes out the far-fetched dream of a National Hockey League team ever coming to Halifax.

The study, published on Tuesday by a research centre at the University of Toronto, says Canada could accommodate as many as six additional teams, but essentially rules out Halifax and Saskatoon after an evaluation of 10 markets.

“I don’t think Halifax hockey fans should be waiting for the team moving van to show up this summer,” said co-author Tony Keller.

The study, titled The New Economics of the NHL, gave Halifax a C as a potential NHL site, the lowest grade among the 10 markets. Saskatoon finished slightly ahead with a C-plus.

While Halifax received an F for its lack of an NHL-calibre facility, Keller said its relatively small population hurt it the most. Population factors counted as 60 per cent of the overall grade while the facility was weighted at just five per cent.

The study says Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal could support second teams, while Winnipeg, Quebec City and Southern Ontario — one of Hamilton, London or Kitchener-Waterloo — are the best new markets for teams.

“I don’t want to say Halifax cannot support an NHL team, but it scores low, its economic strength is low, its population is low, relative to the other candidates,” Keller said.

In January 2007, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman didn’t rule out the idea of a Halifax expansion team during an interview with the CBC. Last July, a group bidding for ownership of the Phoenix Coyotes proposed hosting as many as five regular season games in either Halifax or Saskatoon.

Scorecards of potential NHL markets according to the study titled The New Economics of the NHL.
Greater Toronto Area: A to A+
Hamilton: A-
Montreal: A-
Kitchener-Waterloo, Ont.: B+
Vancouver: B to B+
London, Ont.: B
Winnipeg: B-
Quebec City: B-
Saskatoon: C+
Halifax: C

Not that this is a surprise to anyone, but give Halifax another decade or two and things could be different. Also it is pointless using the Metro Centre as a potential venue since Halifax would obviously need to build a new bigger arena in the 17,000 or so range to support a team.

On another note current NHL playoff rivals (with HUGE fan bases here) will be in Halifax on September 25, 2011 (Same day as the CFL Scotiabank Touchdown Atlantic )

Bruins and Habs will hit Halifax

METRO HALIFAX
Published: April 07, 2011 12:23 a.m.
Last modified: April 07, 2011 3:44 p.m.

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/loca...ll-hit-halifax

The NHL pre-season is returning to Halifax.

The Montreal Canadiens and Boston Bruins announced yesterday they will face off at the Metro Centre on Sunday, Sept. 25, at 7 p.m. Tickets, priced at $64, $84 and $94, go on sale Saturday at 9 a.m.

There were no NHL exhibition games in Halifax last season.

The Ottawa Senators and Florida Panthers met in Halifax in 2009, while the Bruins played the Canadiens and Detroit Red Wings in 2008.

Halifax did host NHL Regular Season Neutral site games in the 90's. It would be nice if they would bring some of those back.

[fenwick16]

Although I generally agree with the conclusion that Halifax can't currently support an NHL team. I would rate Halifax at least on the same level as London, Ontario and above Saskatoon. I wonder if the writer has ever been to Halifax?

The thing that Halifax would have in its favour is a fan base that would include all three Maritime Provinces. I think that Halifax is at least 15-20 years away from being able to support an NHL team. However, if a miracle happened and someone with billions of dollars to spare decided to put a team in Halifax then it could happen sooner (although it is unlikely).

[someone123]

Here's the actual study: http://www.mowatcentre.ca/pdfs/mowatResearch/31.pdf

At first glace it looks okay but I think the regional population numbers are an oversimplification. I think some people would come more than 120 km to NHL hockey games and travel times are also very important (120 km can take 1 hour or 3 hours). Another big problem is that they are taking StatsCan population predictions for growth from 2001-2031. For Halifax the number is 18%, which is probably a bit low. For Quebec City it's 1%, which is ridiculously low (Quebec City grew by over 1% last year alone!).

Keep in mind that the scoring is also very weird. Halifax got a C+ for regional population with 600,000 and Saskatoon got a C with 400,000. For local population they tied despite the fact that Halifax has 400,000 vs 257,000 in Saskatoon. Halifax had 14 head offices to Saskatoon's 10 but both got a C+.

I personally do not think that an NHL team would be viable right now in Halifax but I don't think it's that far off. It's not hard to imagine teams becoming more affordable and in another 10-20 years Halifax will have more people and more money.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Saskatoon just can't compare. The development in Halifax, although not what us friends in the threads really want to see (save maybe Trill, KW, etc), is substantially greater than that in SK... even with their economic boom.

I think if we keep building, an NHL team might not be such a joke. Let's keep things going!!!

After the library, etc... we'll have public money for even more!

[fenwick16]

Another thing that puts Halifax ahead of London and Saskatoon (and even Quebec City) is its airport. London is within a couple of hours drive to Detroit but Canadian teams won't want to have to clear both US and Canadian customs to get to London. (I am not sure how many NHL teams use private chartered flights which would tend to eliminate the airport advantage).

The Halifax airport and its proximity to the large population of the US east coast should be a big economic advantage for locating (US) near-shore businesses in Halifax. The population is currently growing at about 1.6% per year based on the monthly Statistics Canada data. If Halifax can capitalize on the many current development proposals and keep growing its population then it is quite possible that Halifax could have 600,000 people within 20 years. However, the entire province has to start growing in population which is possible if the HRM becomes the focus of growth in the province (it needs a large major city to attract people).

[q12]

With it looking very likely that the Atlanta Thrashers are moving to Winnipeg in their 15,000 seat arena I think this will be good for Halifax's chance of a NHL team sometime in a decade or two.

If Quebec can get their team back and then maybe a 2nd team in the Toronto area (likely Hamilton) Halifax would be the next logical choice. Especially since a Halifax based team could represent 4 provinces in Canada (unless we join a Maritime Union by then.)

The next metro centre is likely to be about 15,000 seats, so if works in Winnipeg it could work in Halifax once our population has moved past the 500,000 mark and beyond.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by q12

With it looking very likely that the Atlanta Thrashers are moving to Winnipeg in their 15,000 seat arena I think this will be good for Halifax's chance of a NHL team sometime in a decade or two.

If Quebec can get their team back and then maybe a 2nd team in the Toronto area (likely Hamilton) Halifax would be the next logical choice. Especially since a Halifax based team could represent 4 provinces in Canada (unless we join a Maritime Union by then.)

The next metro centre is likely to be about 15,000 seats, so if works in Winnipeg it could work in Halifax once our population has moved past the 500,000 mark and beyond.

Although I don't think that Halifax is ready for an NHL team, I often wonder if Halifax would be significantly larger now if some events were different such as 1) what if the Halifax Explosion hadn't occurred - this event probably had a greater effect on Halifax than Katrina had on New Orleans (about the same number of people were killed and Halifax had many thousands of long lasting injuries such as blindness) 2) what if there was a more progressive attitude in Halifax over the past 100 years (imagine if the can-do attitude that exists in places such as Toronto and Vancouver had existed in Halifax for the past 100 years).

I think that if circumstances were different that Halifax might have a current population of 700,000 - 1,000,000 and an NHL team.

Hopefully the next 100 years will be better for Halifax. I would be happy to start with a CFL team in Halifax which it should of had 27 years ago. Amalgamation has made that goal more achievable because of the larger tax base.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by q12

With it looking very likely that the Atlanta Thrashers are moving to Winnipeg in their 15,000 seat arena I think this will be good for Halifax's chance of a NHL team sometime in a decade or two.

If Quebec can get their team back and then maybe a 2nd team in the Toronto area (likely Hamilton) Halifax would be the next logical choice. Especially since a Halifax based team could represent 4 provinces in Canada (unless we join a Maritime Union by then.)

The next metro centre is likely to be about 15,000 seats, so if works in Winnipeg it could work in Halifax once our population has moved past the 500,000 mark and beyond.

I appreciate your enthusiasm q12, but I think you are being as unrealistic as I am often being accused of WRT the CFL in Moncton.

The smallest market teams in the NHL currently have populations in the 1M range. When Winnipeg rejoins, it will be by far the smallest with a population of 700k. It will be at least 50-60 years (if ever) before Halifax reaches 750k or so.

The whole province of NS has a population of only about 920k. The ability of Halifax to suck the youth out of the remainder of the province will be exhausted within the next twenty years or so. Even the most ardent urbanists and Halifax boosters wouldn't want to see the remainder of the province completely emptied of people.

Ultimately the growth of HRM will have to depend on interprovincial and international migration. This will require a paradigm-shift in the anti-development bias rampant in Halifax city council.

Growth will take time. Before an NHL team comes to Halifax, the league will have to return to Quebec City and a second team will also have to go to southern Ontario. Also, there will remain tremendous pressure for the NHL to keep a significant footprint in the US (at least 24 teams).

A team in Halifax will require:
1 - a 36 team NHL.
2 - a Halifax population of 750k (at least).
3 - the corporate support base necessary to sell all those luxury skyboxes.

I would love to see a team in Halifax. I would certainly come down several times a year for a game. I am satisfied however that I will never see it in my lifetime.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I often wonder if Halifax would be significantly larger now if some events were different such as 1) what if the Halifax Explosion hadn't occurred - this event probably had a greater effect on Halifax than Katrina had on New Orleans (about the same number of people were killed and Halifax had many thousands of long lasting injuries such as blindness) 2) what if there was a more progressive attitude in Halifax over the past 100 years (imagine if the can-do attitude that exists in places such as Toronto and Vancouver had existed in Halifax for the past 100 years).

This raises a very interesting point. What led to the attitude that currently prevails in Halifax that progress is bad, that change is bad, that we must cling to the past at all costs?

I honestly don't know the answer. I doubt if the explosion was much of a factor. That was a long time ago and one of the direct results was that large parts of the city got rebuilt thereafter.

In the shorter term I have a theory that the creation in the early 70s of Historic Properties from an unremarkable array of warehouses and industrial sheds on the waterfront, and the abandonment of urban renewal as a result, emboldened the heritage groups to become the obstructionist force they were through much of the 80s until recent times. Once Historic Properties was created, despite it being an abject failure commercially, suddenly anything that was old became worth preserving and every wooden shack had a story attached to it that made it unassailable. Combined with and related to that were the infamous view planes from the Citadel that made downtown virtually undevelopable. In turn that made the bold move, the ambitious development project, virtually impossible.

It's all the fault of the heritage types.

[halifaxboyns]

I have to agree with Keith to a point. I don't think the explosion had a major effect on the city. As a planner, I'm actually glad the hydrostone got redeveloped the way it was. If the Canadian Institute of Planners can vote the area second best neighbourhood in all of Canada; that says that the destruction and reconstruction was worth it (to me).

As to the viewplanes - I partially agree with Keith. Yes, they do create obsticles, but I think the viewplanes aren't necessarily the problem. It's the policies related to developments outside the viewplanes and the MPS policies that talk about things 'near' a viewplane being sensative or that the City should even restore the view. That's just silly and is why the development by the Metrocentre (the tavern - can't think of the name??) was overturned by the URB - it was outside a viewplane, but not sensative to it (since it was adjacent).

I would also agree with the nature of how things progressed...the historic preservationists didn't really have a choice but to end up on an 'anti' side, but that's not to say it isn't their own faults! It's one thing to be about preserving heritage, but when you have an attitude that it's my way or the highway - that never helps at all. They aren't willing to compromise and that's why they are seen as obstructionist. There are rare examples where they will actually compromise (look at that house they preserved near the Hollis/Morris development - that was one of the few examples of compromise I could think of).

All that being said - I think change and growth is coming to Halifax; whether they anti-development crowd likes it or not. The fact that we've had all these developments approved it's only a matter of time before they are all end up under construction - this is all helpful. What I'm saddened by is that there are some great opportunity areas which keep being missed or not seen. Agricola Street and Quinpool are great areas to make pedestrian/transit oriented commercial corridors, with good density and putting the car last. Same with Gottingen street, although there has been some infill there. The hydrostone has actually seen organic growth their, it's a well sought after area and so more density there is appropriate.

But think of some of the great shopping streets in Vancouver (like Denmen or Broadway) or in Toronto (Bloor or Yonge) or Montreal? These areas could easily be like those if the proper policy is created and tax incentives given. I'd love to live along Agricola is a nice highrise building and be able to walk to work and walk to anything but still keep my car for weekend road trips!

Oh and if this team ever comes to Halifax (be it for a few games or permanently) - it will be a great tourism draw. So i'd love to see it happen, either way.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Ultimately the growth of HRM will have to depend on interprovincial and international migration. This will require a paradigm-shift in the anti-development bias rampant in Halifax city council.

Most growth already is from interprovincial and international migration.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by someone123

Most growth already is from interprovincial and international migration.

I've read this in stats as well. It's a fact Im actually very happy about considering the losses in the rest of the province.

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by someone123

Most growth already is from interprovincial and international migration.

Really? That's welcome news. The last time I looked at stats for Halifax a few years ago, the growth of HRM was entirely the result of urbanizing the province as a whole. It wasn't in migration from outside, it was people moving from Sydney and Yarmouth into Halifax that was fueling population growth. Anecdotally, the streets seem way more diverse now then they did when I was an undergrad a decade ago.

Regarding Halifax's "can't do attitude." You guys ascribe way too much power to the heritage crowd. They're vocal, sometimes they have a case and they do have a role to play. All that said, they've stopped virtually nothing in the city (Midtown and the original Quingate proposal is all that comes to mind). The slow growth in Halifax is purely the result of economic factors plus municipal policies that make building in the business parks and suburbs cheap and easy. If it was anything else why has International Place never proceeded? Surely Crombie wasn't planning sitting on a development agreement for 30 years! It has never happened because economic conditions were never right.

The one thing I would add in terms of other factors, is you might want to look at the business community before throwing too many stones at the heritage trust. The Maritime business elite has a reputation for inside the box, cautious decision-making. Sometimes that could be virtue, sometimes a curse. Maybe if we had access to better financing and a less risk adverse crowd (more like the West) we would have had some gambles in the last few decades instead of vacant lots. I don't know enough about our corporate culture to say one way or the other. Just throwing another thought into the mix since I have seen it written a few times. The long and the short of it is, it's easy to blame the heritage trust and the friends of groups, but that doesn't make it so!

[fenwick16]

It isn't just the Heritage Trust, economic factors also have a bearing. However, there is the factor of it being difficult to build anything new downtown, plus the other factor of a relatively high commercial tax rate.

There are more than just a couple projects that were delayed downtown, such as the 27 storey Alexander residential tower that would have brought a few hundred people to live in the downtown core. I can agree that more office towers might not be feasible downtown but I can't understand why residential towers are also being delayed. Such developments would be great for downtown Halifax.

An example of the ultra-conservative thinking in the Halifax area is all the opposition to the new convention centre. This is an area (related to tourism) that Nova Scotia is strong in. In cities such as Vancouver and Toronto, very large conventions centres are built for enormous amounts of money because these cities have the confidence that such facilities will succeed. There should be the confidence in the Halifax area that a relatively modest facility will succeed, and many businessmen do have that confidence. However, opposition groups such as the Save the View group slowed the decision down to a point where there is now a question of whether it will go ahead.

All the delays caused by the Heritage Trust and such groups do have an effect. Developers realize that building anything downtown is a long drawn out process and in many cases they will avoid the trouble. Also, developers are just people, many won't want to proceed with projects that will be opposed. On the other hand, if they were being actively encouraged to proceed then I think that we would see an increase in development. In the case of Barrington Street it took tax incentives to encourage development.

PS: I just realized that this is way off-topic - which was an NHL team in Halifax. I guess most of us think that an NHL team in Halifax isn't going to happen anytime soon. It makes me think how exciting it must have been for the city of Calgary to get an NHL team back in 1980 when the city only had 600,000 people. Similarly for the cities of Edmonton, Winnipeg and Quebec City back in the 1970's.

[Dalreg]

Enjoyable reading in here, but guys keep dreaming. Maybe some day you might get a NHL team, but then maybe someday the World will come to an end.....

Don't even compare Halifax to Saskatoon, London, or any other city. Yes it has some pluses but it also has some minuses. Just like any other city.

Plus being the airport? Come on folks any city with NHL dreams has an airport with commercial flights. Who is going to want to fly to Halifax from the West coast or the Southern States?

Arena? not even close. Halifax ranks behind Hamilton, Saskatoon, Quebec City, heck even London in that department. No way, no how will the city get a team with the current facility.

Keep dreaming and maybe someday......

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Enjoyable reading in here, but guys keep dreaming. Maybe some day you might get a NHL team, but then maybe someday the World will come to an end.....

Don't even compare Halifax to Saskatoon, London, or any other city. Yes it has some pluses but it also has some minuses. Just like any other city.

Plus being the airport? Come on folks any city with NHL dreams has an airport with commercial flights. Who is going to want to fly to Halifax from the West coast or the Southern States?

Arena? not even close. Halifax ranks behind Hamilton, Saskatoon, Quebec City, heck even London in that department. No way, no how will the city get a team with the current facility.

Keep dreaming and maybe someday......

I think we all realize the obvious. However, your post shows that you are completely oblivious to the facts. Have you ever been outside of western Canada?