New York City - Transit News

[Busy Bee]

As much as I'd like to see the connection and line on a map I would have to agree. An extension to Eighth Ave would likely require storage and staging tail tracks almost to Broadway BUT effectively even if you went all the way to Broadway with a station, the fact of the 1 train station on the high tressle would probably be an out of system transfer anyway and one has to ask how many transfers would occur here to get to the East Side from Upper Manhattan (or the NW Bronx) that couldnt just take ABCD to 125th.

Though the one thing that could change this equation would be a MNRR/Amtrak station at 125th. In this situation I can see a Q extension running al the way to the river as hugely beneficial. The western terminal station would be signed 1Q MNRR Amtrak.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Though the one thing that could change this equation would be a MNRR/Amtrak station at 125th. In this situation I can see a Q extension running al the way to the river as hugely beneficial. The western terminal station would be signed 1Q MNRR Amtrak.

Allow me to one-up you on transit fantasy proposals - rather than extending the Q to the riverbank, instead imagine a deflection of the Metro North/Amtrak line into Harlem proper via a bored tunnel. So I'm imagining a 1-2 mile tunneled deviation of the line, or even a wye, to the 8th Ave. subway station beneath St. Nicholas at 125th, where the Q would terminate.

So there would be a 2-level cross-shaped cavern structure, with the Q running east/west and Amtrak/Metro North north/south, all below the A/C/B/D station. In short, a mini East Side Access setup.

[Busy Bee]

Okay, but what exactly would be the point of terminating Hudson Line trains, let alone Amtrak trains in Harlem?

[mrnyc]

^ yeah i was just thinking a further westward tunnel to lenox and st nicks to connect to those subway trains, not further to the el 1 train as it wouldn't be worth it.

if uncle joe won't pony up, maybe the city can catch some of that bill gates divorce fallout money to pay for it? surely his soon to be ex-wife will want to piss him off for embarrassing her. ha.


***


an interesting pilot for this city:



Revel adding a fleet of 50 Teslas to NYC streets for new rider-share program

By Mark Hallum
Posted on April 28, 2021


A fleet of 50 new electric Teslas will be added to the crowded streets of New York City in the next month as part of a new rideshare program from Revel, which New Yorkers know by their rental mopeds.

In late May, the company says the people below 42nd Street in Manhattan will be able to hail a blue Tesla for pickups and dropoffs within that area before Revel begins expanding in phases to give New Yorkers a zero-emissions alternative to cabs and other rideshares.


more:
https://www.amny.com/news/revel-addi...share-program/

[mrnyc]

empire is an antiquated approach -- an arguement for thru service at penn:


Through-service at Penn instead of Cuomo’s Empire Station not so simple: MTA, Amtrak

By Mark Hallum
Posted on April 18, 2021


“There is no justification for the state not to be moving to a through-running platform. Through-running has been the emerging international norm since as early as the 60’s. While some proponents chortle privately that through running is a “unicorn” or something for Paris or London but not New York, their own responses make clear through-running is feasible. The only reason it is not being considered is its proponents steadfast refusal to look at the full economic and quality of life benefits which follow from through running to the entirety of the region.”


more:
https://www.amny.com/news/137538011/

[electricron]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

Through-service at Penn instead of Cuomo’s Empire Station not so simple: MTA, Amtrak

I was under the impression that Cuomo's Empire Station plan was all about rebuilding the headhouse for LIRR into a more attractive building than rebuilding or modifying the tracks at Pennsylvania Station.

As is the Empire Connection can only access tracks 1–9, of which tracks 1-4 are stub and 5-9 are through running. Penn Station track layout is not the reason you do not see Empire Service trains through running to Long Island. And it is not the type of shoes on the train either, as the third rail Empire approaches to Penn Station are configured the same as the rest of them at Penn Station (per LIRR specifications).

So I fail to understand the whole point of the blog/editorial linked above. Am I missing something?

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by electricron

I was under the impression that Cuomo's Empire Station plan was all about rebuilding the headhouse for LIRR into a more attractive building than rebuilding or modifying the tracks at Pennsylvania Station.

As is the Empire Connection can only access tracks 1–9, of which tracks 1-4 are stub and 5-9 are through running. Penn Station track layout is not the reason you do not see Empire Service trains through running to Long Island. And it is not the type of shoes on the train either, as the third rail Empire approaches to Penn Station are configured the same as the rest of them at Penn Station (per LIRR specifications).

So I fail to understand the whole point of the blog/editorial linked above. Am I missing something?

empire south and the long held through running goals are two different things.

penn accommodates 21 tracks. the empire plan would add eight more tracks to the south in conjunction with new gateway tunnels. and yes an expanded penn station, but that's it.

rethink envisions going further with full thru running given that expanded service:

https://vimeo.com/214381280

as with anything transit related, it all comes down to time and money. expanded thru running will happen eventually, but for now empire south and gateway need to come first.

the linchpin here is the old gateway tunnels are in dire straits, so something needs to move soon on this whether it be repairs only to the old tunnels or repairs and new gateway tunnels. obviously if its to be the former that could put a crimp in cuomo's empire south south plans.

maybe i'm missing something, but that's my take on it.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by electricron

I was under the impression that Cuomo's Empire Station plan was all about rebuilding the headhouse for LIRR into a more attractive building than rebuilding or modifying the tracks at Pennsylvania Station.

As is the Empire Connection can only access tracks 1–9, of which tracks 1-4 are stub and 5-9 are through running. Penn Station track layout is not the reason you do not see Empire Service trains through running to Long Island. And it is not the type of shoes on the train either, as the third rail Empire approaches to Penn Station are configured the same as the rest of them at Penn Station (per LIRR specifications).

So I fail to understand the whole point of the blog/editorial linked above. Am I missing something?

The "Empire Station" plan includes the Penn South component of Gateway, which is enormously wasteful. This is different than the Amtrak Empire Service train or the Empire connection. Would be nice if they didn't keep using the same name for everything...

The argument for through running almost all service instead of doing Penn South is a strong one.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

empire south and the long held through running goals are two different things.

penn accommodates 21 tracks. the empire plan would add eight more tracks to the south in conjunction with new gateway tunnels. and yes an expanded penn station, but that's it.

rethink envisions going further with full thru running given that expanded service:

https://vimeo.com/214381280

as with anything transit related, it all comes down to time and money. expanded thru running will happen eventually, but for now empire south and gateway need to come first.

the linchpin here is the old gateway tunnels are in dire straits, so something needs to move soon on this whether it be repairs only to the old tunnels or repairs and new gateway tunnels. obviously if its to be the former that could put a crimp in cuomo's empire south south plans.

maybe i'm missing something, but that's my take on it.

Given there is no political will to force through running I doubt it will happen in the foreseeable future. We don't need Penn South.

[mrnyc]

^ i thought we do need empire penn south to accomodate new gateway tunnels easier.

and also in advance of future thru running i would presume?

Originally Posted by k1052

The "Empire Station" plan includes the Penn South component of Gateway, which is enormously wasteful. This is different than the Amtrak Empire Service train or the Empire connection. Would be nice if they didn't keep using the same name for everything...

The argument for through running almost all service instead of doing Penn South is a strong one.

^ there may be a case for pushing harder for that if the feds only come through with old gateway repairs instead of new tunnels. unfortunately afaik cuomo is not steering any planning toward thru running in that contingency.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ i thought we do need empire penn south to accomodate new gateway tunnels easier.

and also in advance of future thru running i would presume?







^ there may be a case for pushing harder for that if the feds only come through with old gateway repairs instead of new tunnels. unfortunately afaik cuomo is not steering any planning toward thru running in that contingency.

No, we don't need Penn South for that. Just bring the new tunnels in to the reconfigured (now eastbound only) side of the station as that proposal shows. Wider platforms, much improved vertical circulation, and not terminating trains there would then solve the remaining problems. A bunch of NJ side projects still need to happen though like the South Portal bridge and Secaucus loop.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by k1052

No, we don't need Penn South for that. Just bring the new tunnels in to the reconfigured (now eastbound only) side of the station as that proposal shows. Wider platforms, much improved vertical circulation, and not terminating trains there would then solve the remaining problems. A bunch of NJ side projects still need to happen though like the South Portal bridge and Secaucus loop.

actually, of all of this, the portal bridge fix is the one ready to go. no new added rail, but they say they can improve capacity with speedier service with it:

https://www.nj.com/news/2020/12/a-ne...with-feds.html

as for a secaucus loop -- thats a part of any new gateway tunnels project as i understand it.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

actually, of all of this, the portal bridge fix is the one ready to go. no new added rail, but they say they can improve capacity with speedier service with it:

https://www.nj.com/news/2020/12/a-ne...with-feds.html

as for a secaucus loop -- thats a part of any new gateway tunnels project as i understand it.

North Portal is already engineered and is getting money. South Portal and the loop are part of Gateway but we still haven't seen what chunks of Gateway are to be funded in the upcoming infra bill.

[mrnyc]

oh i thought that was all of it for the north and south bridge. ugh.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Okay, but what exactly would be the point of terminating Hudson Line trains, let alone Amtrak trains in Harlem?

Sorry let me explain again. Around 115th St., where the Hudson River tracks are still in the tunnel under the park, they'd travel northeasterly in a new bored tunnel about 3,000ft to a 2-track station at 125th St. North of the platform the line would travel northwesterly back to the (surface) tracks around 135th St.

Right now passengers are looking at a 500-600ft walk between the proposed Metro North station at 125th St. and the existing 1 train station on the arch bridge. New Yorkers are willing to make walks like that, and there's a McDonald's on the way, but the 1 train is somewhat limited in where it goes as compared to the A, D, E station a few blocks east of that point, especially if the Q is extended to that point.

[Busy Bee]

I see what you're saying now. IMO the deviation you originally mentioned all the way to St Nicholas doesn't have any real benefit for the outrageous cost of such a tunnel. Your clarifying comment seems to be more realistic but I dont know if the benefit would be large enough to bother with. If the Empire Connection (West Side Line) was to get buried or bridged in this area of Riverside Park, it could tunnel to be moderately closer to the Broadway 1 station at 125th and then emerge north of where the current Empire Connection viaduct ends around 135th, again I don't know if the benefit would be there. Especially so when one considers the needed depth (and required deep station at or near 1 train 125th station) to free tunnel under existing properties including the billion dollar Columbia Manhattanville projects or the limitations on grade % since it would have to dive under what is a valley (hence Riverside Dr viaduct and the Broadway tressle) .Your idea has potential in a scenario where the Q got all the way to Broadway but I'm not sure the benefits would be large enough to justify the expense of undergrounding the MNRR/Amtrak tracks just to get a wee bit closer to a 1Q connection. I can imagine a scenario where a nice modern moving walkway in the Q tail track tunnel culd the several hundred feet between a MNRR/Amtrak station @ 125th to the Q terminus at Broadway much much cheaper than rerouting the Empire Connection (which would be required to be a larger diameter for Amtrak trains but that's a whole other thing) for less than a half mile under West Harlem.

[mrnyc]

here we go for the bx:


Four new Metro-North stations coming to the Bronx with Penn Station access: Cuomo


Governor Andrew Cuomo preached on rebuilding New York state after the COVID-19 pandemic, announcing a plan for the Bronx that included completing a connection for the Metro-North Railroad to Penn Station and four new stations in the borough.

Not only will Metro-North be accessible to Penn Station through Moynihan Train Hall, there will be new stops at Co-op City, Morris Park and Hunts Point, Cuomo said on Thursday morning, which could happen by 2025 after the federal government recently signed off.

“The key is access and access to mass transit. If you look at the parts of the city that have redeveloped quickly, you notice they all have one thing in common; They are all very accessible by train,” Cuomo said. “There’s a lot of problems with this idea, this is a complicated idea. It’s not just Metro North Metro North is part of MTA, the train tracks are owned by Amtrak and the federal government. This is complicated, and this is expensive. This is a lot of this is over a billion dollars.”

Cuomo says access to 160 trains, not including Amtrak, will be available to communities as part of the Metro-North improvements by the time the project wraps will be part of his larger plan to redevelop Penn into the Empire Station Complex.


more:
https://www.amny.com/news/four-new-m...-access-cuomo/

[Randomguy34]

I'm still confused what the $1.5 billion figure is for. I can't imagine 4 Metro-North stations costing 2/3rds of the 7 train extension.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by Randomguy34

I'm still confused what the $1.5 billion figure is for. I can't imagine 4 Metro-North stations costing 2/3rds of the 7 train extension.

There's a huge amount of track building and realignment. I believe there will also be quite a bit of OCS installation as well and some bridge alterations/new construction. Not sure about what all is required on the Hell Gate but it wouldn't surprise me if they're thorwing some refurb in there as well, it could use it.

[Mister Uptempo]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

There's a huge amount of track building and realignment. I believe there will also be quite a bit of OCS installation as well and some bridge alterations/new construction. Not sure about what all is required on the Hell Gate but it wouldn't surprise me if they're thorwing some refurb in there as well, it could use it.

A graphic summary of the work needed to get Metro North to Penn Station-