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  #6581  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2024, 5:57 PM
shantyside shantyside is offline
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Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
My opinion is that this development should not be height-limited. The goal shouldn't be to match existing buildings heights. Instead, the goal should be to reinstate density.
before the internet density was an asset - you had to be downtown to do business, and if there was wasn't enough room for all your employees then you built a skyscraper to accommodate them - like BNY Mellon center for instance

Editorial: The BNY Mellon Tower can't survive. Pittsburgh must plan now for what's next.
https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion...s/202407090011

today density can also be a liability as we learned during the pandemic

if the new liberty east building had filled up right away and the occupancy of the philips building wasn't in limbo, I could see making the argument that all that density and height are necessary to meet strong demand

the only argument I see for building higher is walnut capital wants to maximize the $$$ the project can potentially generate (and the city wants to maximize the tax revenues) - and they'll get their way so hopefully it works out for them
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  #6582  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2024, 6:30 PM
dfiler dfiler is offline
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Originally Posted by shantyside View Post
before the internet density was an asset - you had to be downtown to do business, and if there was wasn't enough room for all your employees then you built a skyscraper to accommodate them - like BNY Mellon center for instance

Editorial: The BNY Mellon Tower can't survive. Pittsburgh must plan now for what's next.
https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion...s/202407090011

today density can also be a liability as we learned during the pandemic

if the new liberty east building had filled up right away and the occupancy of the philips building wasn't in limbo, I could see making the argument that all that density and height are necessary to meet strong demand

the only argument I see for building higher is walnut capital wants to maximize the $$$ the project can potentially generate (and the city wants to maximize the tax revenues) - and they'll get their way so hopefully it works out for them
This is conflating density with monolithic zoning. Certainly, central business districts, filled with office towers, will have problems in the remote work era. But that is a different topic than density. There are many examples of successful, high-density, cities that have very few office towers. Paris is an obvious example.

This land, being across the street from the transit station is well suited to high-density low-rises. Low-rise density continues to be a highly efficient urban structure in the work-from-home era.
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  #6583  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2024, 7:11 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
This is conflating density with monolithic zoning. Certainly, central business districts, filled with office towers, will have problems in the remote work era. But that is a different topic than density. There are many examples of successful, high-density, cities that have very few office towers. Paris is an obvious example.

This land, being across the street from the transit station is well suited to high-density low-rises. Low-rise density continues to be a highly efficient urban structure in the work-from-home era.
If by "low-rise" you mean a five-over-one style apartment building, I think that's underbuilt for downtown.

If Oakland can manage new buildings like One on Centre, we should expect full steel buildings downtown as well.
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  #6584  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 12:10 PM
shantyside shantyside is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
This is conflating density with monolithic zoning. Certainly, central business districts, filled with office towers, will have problems in the remote work era. But that is a different topic than density. There are many examples of successful, high-density, cities that have very few office towers. Paris is an obvious example.

This land, being across the street from the transit station is well suited to high-density low-rises. Low-rise density continues to be a highly efficient urban structure in the work-from-home era.
i get the arlington, virginia vibe they're going for - i'm sure liberty east would like to achieve that same vibe by completing phase 2 of their development

if duolingo continues to expand and bakery square becomes pittsburgh's "AI avenue" as they're promoting, maybe future demand is there and all this supply is needed

at some point hopefully the discussion will turn to the question of the "east liberty commercial historic district"



will the success of liberty east and bakery square fulfill the promise of developing east liberty from the perimeter and gradually moving toward the historic district?

or will the historic district continue to be neglected - because to me that is the ultimate measure of success in this whole endeavor



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  #6585  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 2:05 PM
shantyside shantyside is offline
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what happened to this project?

McKnight Realty’s plan to build apartments in East Liberty runs into roadblocks
https://nextpittsburgh.com/city-desi...to-roadblocks/

"McKnight Realty Partners owns the Penn Avenue parcel which, includes the theater and three other buildings. It wants to demolish a one-story building and construct a six-floor structure with retail space on the first floor and 38 apartments — including four affordable to low-income households — above."

even though as usual I thought the design was lame and needed work, I did believe this was a good proposal with that low-rise vibe that fit in well

I realize this project had particular challenges with the theater - for me more evidence the historic district is at the bottom of the priority list

‘A very vibrant neighborhood’: Downtown developer targets East Liberty for more apartments
https://www.post-gazette.com/busines...s/202106170088

“East Liberty is such a dynamic and storied neighborhood. The May Stern building is at the epicenter of it. We are working with the tenants in the building and the Kelly Strayhorn Theater and we are looking forward to adding additional residential units to improve the neighborhood,” he said.
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  #6586  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 11:32 AM
shantyside shantyside is offline
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what happened to this project?



PPG Place owner makes case for six-story office building in East Liberty
https://www.post-gazette.com/busines...s/202106030184

"The owner of Downtown’s PPG Place pitched a proposal Thursday for the latest development in East Liberty — a six-story office building on Penn Avenue across from Target.

Highwoods Properties appeared before the Pittsburgh Zoning Board of Adjustment to request a special exception and four variances needed to get the 60,000-square-foot East Liberty Centre project going."

that lot has been sitting empty for six years - they should have just left the original buildings there - but no, the first developer tony dolan had to demolish them right away so east liberty could have another empty corner

highwoods properties is a big player - they own the PPG and EQT buildings - if they see no urgent reason to build in that area, what is walnut capital seeing that they're not
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  #6587  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 1:18 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Next Pittsburgh has an article on the discussions at the Planning Commission about the Bakery Square expansion, following the July 9 meeting:

https://nextpittsburgh.com/city-desi...are-expansion/

Here are the supplemental slides from the meeting:

https://apps.pittsburghpa.gov/redtai...2024-07-09.pdf

Although I would love to see it as I think it would be great for the continued development of Greater East Liberty as a walkable, transit-oriented centerpiece for the East End, I am skeptical we will actually get anything close to 210 feet developed. I suspect this is more about understanding in the current climate you have to start with a big ask so you can negotiate down to what you really want/need.

In addition to height discussions, there is apparently an ongoing discussion about stepbacks, which Walnut is fine with doing along the existing streets, but does not want to do along the Busway or along new streets. Apparently there is some pushback about the resulting "canyon" effect (which I suspect most people at SkyscraperPage would see as more feature than bug).
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  #6588  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 1:20 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
If by "low-rise" you mean a five-over-one style apartment building, I think that's underbuilt for downtown.
Just from context I suspect the other poster also meant to include what I would probably call midrise structures, but in any event what Walnut is asking for the right to build in this expansion.
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  #6589  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 3:53 PM
shantyside shantyside is offline
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Next Pittsburgh has an article on the discussions at the Planning Commission about the Bakery Square expansion, following the July 9 meeting
the building on the corner is completely out of scale - how am I the only one who sees this?



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  #6590  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 4:24 PM
xdv8 xdv8 is offline
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Walnut and Strada are designing the first building now and have it pegged at around 140'. I don't think that's significantly bigger than Liberty East, Bakery Square 2.0, Highland Building, or the top of East Liberty Presbyterian.
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  #6591  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 5:01 PM
dfiler dfiler is offline
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Originally Posted by shantyside View Post
the building on the corner is completely out of scale - how am I the only one who sees this?
Should I copy/paste my detailed reply from the last time you posted this complaint? The reason was explained.
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  #6592  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 5:07 PM
shantyside shantyside is offline
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Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
Should I copy/paste my detailed reply from the last time you posted this complaint? The reason was explained.
it's called a "critique"

"At architecture school, a crit is your opportunity to present your work, and to receive feedback on it. 'Crit' is short for 'critique'."
https://portico.space/journal//archi...what-is-a-crit

Quote:
Originally Posted by xdv8 View Post
Walnut and Strada are designing the first building now and have it pegged at around 140'. I don't think that's significantly bigger than Liberty East, Bakery Square 2.0, Highland Building, or the top of East Liberty Presbyterian.
the L-shaped building at the corner should be no more than one story higher than the meridian building so the two of them act together as a gateway to the core of bakery square

and so it doesn't plunge the trader joe's parking lot into shadow during the late afternoon when the sun is setting in the west

Last edited by shantyside; Jul 11, 2024 at 5:25 PM.
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  #6593  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 6:16 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
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If modern-day ideas about contextual height existed 100 years earlier, we never would have built high-rise districts anywhere in the U.S., save for perhaps a few areas like Harlem that went straight from farmland to apartments.
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  #6594  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 10:12 PM
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AaronPGH AaronPGH is online now
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There is ZERO reason the dead center of East Liberty shouldn't push taller.
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  #6595  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2024, 1:54 AM
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TF15 TF15 is offline
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With all of the zoning red tape going on in the city, I wonder if we’re bound to see some of the townships/boroughs take more advantage of the apartment booms essential to the region. That 52 acre plot in Sharpsburg/O’Hara would be a fine place for some “scaled” apartment buildings/retail with the demographics and infrastructure to support it
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  #6596  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2024, 4:37 PM
shantyside shantyside is offline
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Originally Posted by AaronPGH View Post
There is ZERO reason the dead center of East Liberty shouldn't push taller.
i have to admit - you have made an extremely persuasive argument
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  #6597  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2024, 6:54 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
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How the Parklane got built in 1962 never ceases to amaze me.

I'll admit I've thought about yoinking it up with a giant "god hand" and putting it in the Baum-Centre corridor.
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  #6598  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2024, 8:58 PM
themaguffin themaguffin is offline
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Originally Posted by shantyside View Post
the building on the corner is completely out of scale - how am I the only one who sees this?




The buildings are fine. They are not "big."

There are plenty of examples of this in many cities.
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  #6599  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2024, 8:58 PM
themaguffin themaguffin is offline
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Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
Should I copy/paste my detailed reply from the last time you posted this complaint? The reason was explained.
I pasted my same reply. Not wasting more time on that shit.
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  #6600  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2024, 3:18 PM
Minivan Werner Minivan Werner is offline
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Originally Posted by AaronPGH View Post
There is ZERO reason the dead center of East Liberty shouldn't push taller.
Especially since it was taller once.
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