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  #4861  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 4:34 AM
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TonyTone TonyTone is offline
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Who said that? Not me.

I clearly stated there should remain two lanes of traffic.

You can eliminate 4 blocks of parking on one street without an end to the world. There's parking all over Center City.
Thats my point eliminating parking on a strip has never worked & it never will work.

The only strip that truly needs to be car free & turned into a promenade is Samson St

Samson st should be the dining & club entertainment district in the heart of the city, thats a street that would work well on.

We just gotta be real on what we got & what we are dealing with in Philly
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  #4862  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 1:40 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
Thats my point eliminating parking on a strip has never worked & it never will work.

The only strip that truly needs to be car free & turned into a promenade is Samson St

Samson st should be the dining & club entertainment district in the heart of the city, thats a street that would work well on.

We just gotta be real on what we got & what we are dealing with in Philly
Where in Philadelphia has a street been re-programmed to eliminate parking (only) and it "never worked"? It's only been whole hog, eliminating parking -AND- through traffic (which I agree hasn't worked).
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  #4863  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 2:24 PM
bdurk bdurk is offline
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The South Broad renovations are amazing but how does it cost $100 million for just that stretch? Also, it really disappoints me that they're doing all this with no protected bike lanes. We need more protected bike lanes and Broad St is one of the best streets available for those
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  #4864  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 2:44 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by bdurk View Post
The South Broad renovations are amazing but how does it cost $100 million for just that stretch? Also, it really disappoints me that they're doing all this with no protected bike lanes. We need more protected bike lanes and Broad St is one of the best streets available for those
Everything is expensive these days, and City Hall to Washington Ave is a 1 mile with a lot of blocks/intersections. How much were you expecting?

As a reference, the light poles on North Broad cost $12M+ in 2017... Now that was an overpriced boondoggle (IMO).
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  #4865  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
I’m not sure why we keep trying to do streets with no cars or parking.

The whole USA did the promenade trend in the 80’s & every single strip failed & reverted back to regular streets.

Turns out cities work the best when people can travel along & stop to park.

We aren’t like our European friends we like cars & (barely)trains.
Perhaps all of those promenades failed because they were ill-conceived half-assed versions of what Europe has been perfecting for a millennium.

There are plenty of pedestrian-only areas in cities across the US that have succeeded. Consider the following:
  • Broadway in Midtown Manhattan
  • 34th Avenue in Queens
  • Exchange Plance in New Orleans
  • Downtown St. Augustine, FL
  • Church Street Market in Burlington, VT
  • Downtown Mall in Charlottesville, VA

Do I think that every street in Philadelphia should be ped/bike only? Hell no. Do I even think Broad should be ped/bike only? Outside of parades, no. Do I think that perhaps 13th/12th between Arch and Locust should be pedestrian/bike only? Hell yes.

What makes pedestrian promenades successful is when they are attractive. People will walk there if there are nice things to do. 13th and 12th already have significant ped traffic, and plenty of retail and restaurants.

Are we Europe? No. Is Europe perfect? No. Should we aspire to adapt what works from their cities? Yes.
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  #4866  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 3:02 PM
Redddog Redddog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
Thats my point eliminating parking on a strip has never worked & it never will work.

The only strip that truly needs to be car free & turned into a promenade is Samson St

Samson st should be the dining & club entertainment district in the heart of the city, thats a street that would work well on.


We just gotta be real on what we got & what we are dealing with in Philly
That would be cool. The only problem I see there is that a lot of Samson is currently where these places put their dumpsters. Where would those go?
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  #4867  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 3:26 PM
ScreamShatter ScreamShatter is offline
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That would be cool. The only problem I see there is that a lot of Samson is currently where these places put their dumpsters. Where would those go?
Underground in a new vacuum system like Roosevelt Island in NYC. 😎🥳
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  #4868  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 3:35 PM
BroadandMarket BroadandMarket is offline
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Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
That would be cool. The only problem I see there is that a lot of Samson is currently where these places put their dumpsters. Where would those go?
There's also driveway entrances. It wouldn't be permanent because deliveries/trash will need to get there. So you do it scheduled like Austin's 6th street. Something like Friday 4 PM -2 AM, Saturday 11AM - 2 AM, Sunday 11 AM - 8. Then you put bollards at the end that can raise and lower. There's no garage entrances 15th to 17th so you close that chunk off. 19th to 21st as well. Do the same thing on 13th from Locust to Chestnut, 2nd from Market to Chestnut, Chestnut 2nd to Front (chunks that would regularly happen during COVID. Then there's the pedestrian area from 15th to 17th between Market and JFK. It's already pedestrian only between buildings but there's no landscaping or nice pavers.
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  #4869  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 3:45 PM
Jerryiz Jerryiz is offline
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I was jusr rginking the same thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
That would be cool. The only problem I see there is that a lot of Samson is currently where these places put their dumpsters. Where would those go?
I was just down there and parked a little bit away from Vetris' on either Samson or Chancellor, i cant remember but i do remember thinking as I was walking to Ashton's Cigar Bar on 15th and Walnut , how these DUMPSTERS GOTTA GO !
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  #4870  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 3:48 PM
DeltaNerd DeltaNerd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
I’m not sure why we keep trying to do streets with no cars or parking.

The whole USA did the promenade trend in the 80’s & every single strip failed & reverted back to regular streets.

Turns out cities work the best when people can travel along & stop to park.

We aren’t like our European friends we like cars & (barely)trains.
Where? I love sitting in traffic on Chestnut, Walnut, and Chinatown. Lol its like 15 parking spaces per block. How in the world would that fill a restaurant and retail?

There are parking garages to park in. This is not the 80s anymore. This is 2024 the market is very different.

There is a shift towards driving less and either using alternative modes or ordering online. We are the USA and we still like public transit in major cities. Parking is dirt cheap in this country, so I'm not sure why you feel attacked
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  #4871  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 4:18 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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The only thing about parking is that it provides a buffer between driving lanes and pedestrians. I really don't walking with kids down the sidewalk with cars and busses zooming by. Some of this is due to the width of the sidewalk though, and a similar buffer can be created using planters. Even a bike lane is preferable, for example spruce and pine with the parking on one side and bike lane on the other.

Also, not sure if this is personal preference, but as a driver I can't stand streets with more than one driving lane in a single direction. It's too chaotic. I understand that it's useful for emergency vehicles, but only if there's enough room for everyone to get out of the way. Seems like bike lanes are more efficient for that.
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  #4872  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 4:35 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Samson is a great candidate esp between 15th and 17th. There aren't really any dumpsters on Samson west of Broad anymore because there is a service ally between Samson and Walnut.

Other candidates are Drury, 13th, and wild card, the block of Martha in East Kensington where Martha, PBC, and now Picnic are all located.

Also, if the streets were "closed" they could be configured as Woonerfs where service vehicles could get down them on off hours to do deliveries and or pick up trash. Most of that stuff happens off hours anyway.

The new Piazza was configured with its internal streets as Woonerfs. You can drive right into it but the physical programming of the space makes you think you can't. It's a perfect solution for many of these smaller streets.

It will be interesting to see how it works as retail opens in the new phases.
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  #4873  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 4:56 PM
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  #4874  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 5:58 PM
Redddog Redddog is offline
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Originally Posted by Jayfar View Post
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lol.
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  #4875  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 6:10 PM
Raja Raja is offline
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Originally Posted by BroadandMarket View Post
There's also driveway entrances. It wouldn't be permanent because deliveries/trash will need to get there. So you do it scheduled like Austin's 6th street. Something like Friday 4 PM -2 AM, Saturday 11AM - 2 AM, Sunday 11 AM - 8. Then you put bollards at the end that can raise and lower. There's no garage entrances 15th to 17th so you close that chunk off. 19th to 21st as well. Do the same thing on 13th from Locust to Chestnut, 2nd from Market to Chestnut, Chestnut 2nd to Front (chunks that would regularly happen during COVID. Then there's the pedestrian area from 15th to 17th between Market and JFK. It's already pedestrian only between buildings but there's no landscaping or nice pavers.
Yes. San Diego also uses retractable bollards pretty effectively for periodic pedestrianization of the Gaslamp Quarter.
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  #4876  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 8:56 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Not good for Philadelphia Mills if Simon offloads it (currently at 76% occupancy).

Simon Property Group in talks to surrender Philadelphia Mills mall after $290M loan comes due
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...290m-loan.html
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  #4877  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2024, 11:56 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
Not good for Philadelphia Mills if Simon offloads it (currently at 76% occupancy).

Simon Property Group in talks to surrender Philadelphia Mills mall after $290M loan comes due
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...290m-loan.html
It's already a dead mall. The entire site should be demolished and reconfigured to be a new neighborhood. It's a lot of land in a prime location set in a part of the region with virtually no new construction.
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  #4878  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 1:49 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
It's already a dead mall. The entire site should be demolished and reconfigured to be a new neighborhood. It's a lot of land in a prime location set in a part of the region with virtually no new construction.
It won't happen (at least not a very long time), but a version of The Village at Valley Forge would be a nice semi-urban mixed-use anchor in a suburban part of Philadelphia. And it would provide a lot of new housing.
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  #4879  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2024, 4:50 PM
cardeza cardeza is offline
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thank you
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  #4880  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2024, 4:36 PM
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"A $100 million transformation to revitalize the Avenue of the Arts along South Broad Street is set to begin next year."

S Broad Street by , on Flickr

S Broad Street b by , on Flickr

S Broad Street c by , on Flickr

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...0rv5g4Q5Evl7jg
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Last edited by SEFTA; Jul 12, 2024 at 4:50 PM.
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