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  #161  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 3:00 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Are you thinking double track or single track? With such a wide loop, I assume that the train would travel in both directions (either with passing areas or double track)? From the West Mall there could eventually be train service (or BRT) to Timberlea and Bedford.

The West Mall terminal will really help transit bottlenecks if people can completely avoid the Armdale Rotary. There would need to be sufficient parking so that people will just park their car and take the LRT downtown.

I like the idea of using the CN Right of Way (if there is room for a separate track).

Last edited by fenwick16; Apr 6, 2010 at 3:16 AM.
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  #162  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 4:05 PM
Halifax Hillbilly Halifax Hillbilly is offline
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At the end of the day the biggest thing is that I wish people in Halifax would appreciate the scale of the city and cost of transportation projects a little more. It's great to buy new buses and build $10M terminals but major cities are investing billions - in Halifax terms this would imply allocating perhaps $300-400M for a transit project, and that has never even remotely been on the table.
It's hard to have this kind of conversation until we know what that kind of money can buy. I think we should take Someone123's suggestion from another thread and start compiling info on the costs and layouts of other transit projects to get an idea of what the per kilometer and station cost of some of these options are. Should we do that in here, or start another thread?
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  #163  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 10:26 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I like that some people are thinking - but I do agree with the comment that it's hard to nail down something like this until the costs are explored. I can imagine that the underground component of route would be the most expensive part, because if I remember back to when the tunnel was put under Duke Street - it was hugely expensive, just for that one tunnel!

Granted, that was then and this is now and technology has advanced to the point that we should be able do something like that for cheaper. The other comment I'd make is to go back to the previous discussion about seperating the LRT from the existing rail tracks; there are safety standards that would have to be observed (where as using heavy rail on the existing and putting back the 2nd track wouldn't be so much of a problem).

Plus I don't think there would be enough room for more than 1 track for an LRT (when tied with the existing track) depending on the routing, so for it to be one continuous direction would be horrible if you were trying to get from say Dal to the Metro Centre (if it was travelling in a different direction). Plus I don't believe the rail cut's ROW is wide enough to expand, but I may be wrong (if someone know's for sure, please correct me).

It's a good start though. Oh, one last thing I forgot - I don't think the dockyard would be an option anymore since I think the parcel ownership has changed in some cases or there may be obstructions. I havent' walked the area in a long time, but the whole reason for the bridge over into the Irving dry docks was because of the rail - if someone is down that way, have a look. But I think it was only wide enough for single rail though, so any rail coming inbound from say Bedford, would have to have a siding to pull off too while an outbound train went by (to reduce conflict).

Last edited by halifaxboyns; Apr 6, 2010 at 10:30 PM. Reason: Clicked post too soon - missed a thought.
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  #164  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 10:50 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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No matter what system is built, a huge initial fixed cost is the operation and maintenance centre, which includes storage tracks, light maintenance bays, and overhaul bays. Unfortunately they don't scale down very well, I would doubt including land costs even for a small system you could get costs down to less than $100 million.

Tracks can really range in price. In Toronto where they had to do very little utility relocation, with no signal system, no powered switches they built 7.5 km of dual track for ~$100 million, not including rolling stock. For street running utility relocation is usually the highest cost which makes it hard to predict costs without an underground services map.
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  #165  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 3:58 AM
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Just brainstorming...

-Clayton Park line runs down the "Linear Park" until Ashburn
-Bedford line runs on CN trackage, then down the no man's land alongside the Robie St extension (Massachusetts Ave), then does something Curitiba-style (dedicated busway) along Robie

I really hope to see true Rapid Transit in Halifax sometime soon and I think dedicated BRT transitways like Ottawa has may be most realistic for us.
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  #166  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 5:20 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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I would like to see Halifax invest $500 million dollars in rail-based rapid transit starting on the (peninsula) and then twin the MacKay bridge when required, instead of $1 billion on a South End Harbour crossing. I would think that twinning the MacKay bridge would be a fraction of the cost of the South End route.

Is interesting to note that between 1958 - 1970, that the Halifax area completed two major suspension bridges. So a significant LRT system and twinning the MacKay Bridge is not that far fetched. It would certainly get people in the HRM talking.
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  #167  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 6:39 PM
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there wont be any transit down that path in Clayton park at all it is way to heavily used and loved there, same with ashburn sorry to say.
id like to see something started with this at least small like the dayliner or heavy rail from bedford or truro and have have the obvious stops like mumford and mill cove ect ect.
but once that is deemed feasible i think maybe a bayers lake line to timberlea or even a Dartmouth line across one of the bridges wouldn't be to bad either.
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  #168  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2010, 10:10 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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It still annoys me that everything is discussed in the context of serving Bedford and then ideas like LRT are dismissed. Bedford doesn't have the population to support its own light rail line but there are definitely areas in the HRM which do have the densities - namely the peninsula and Clayton Park, which could have been much better if it were more sensibly designed.

I was just on the SkyTrain 20 minutes ago and it passes through many areas that are no more densely built up than parts of Halifax. It has about 70 km of track, some underground. I find it really hard to believe that Vancouver can support that, streetcars, electric trolleys, and a vastly superior bus service while Halifax can't even handle one small LRT line. Vancouver's larger for sure, but the other part of the puzzle is that it has more direction and better priorities. Vancouver's transit is far more expensive per capita and TransLink is in far worse financial shape than Metro Transit but they are nevertheless focused on expansion and providing high-level service. In Halifax the focus is on what can't be done and the system is so poor that the only ones who use it are the ones who have no other choice.
I agree with you in terms of not just focusing on Bedford - but no matter what is proposed (LRT or heavy rail), there is going to be a cost that I don't believe HRM can handle at this point.

Heavy rail may be a more appetizing option simply because with existing rail lines, the right of ways still exist in some form or another. Where as with an LRT, you have to get a ROW through already built up land - which more than likely requires expropriating property (not a terribly fun process and can be quite expensive).

Once I figure out how to use flickr, I want to upload a map I created to illustrate the idea of a heavy rail network (with some creative 'fiction' on my part about expansion). But I don't discount that there may be room for LRT in the process, I don't believe it should simply be counted out. Sometimes the best projects are the ones which are the most difficult.
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  #169  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2010, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Heavy rail may be a more appetizing option simply because with existing rail lines, the right of ways still exist in some form or another. Where as with an LRT, you have to get a ROW through already built up land - which more than likely requires expropriating property (not a terribly fun process and can be quite expensive).
Not really.. there are plenty of streets and public properties that can serve as a rail ROW.

This does not have cost figures but has interesting details on ways to save costs by running rail along existing streets: http://railforthevalley.wordpress.co...ht-rail-track/
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  #170  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2010, 5:13 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Not really.. there are plenty of streets and public properties that can serve as a rail ROW.

This does not have cost figures but has interesting details on ways to save costs by running rail along existing streets: http://railforthevalley.wordpress.co...ht-rail-track/
This is true - if I look at the example we have here in Calgary of 7th Avenue being a transit only street in downtown. Although there is a huge push on to eventually put the LRT lines underground (which is a real waste since they are re-doing all the stations for 4 car trains)!

The problem for me would be the streets in the suburbs and I'm not talking just Bedford. Bayers Road is mostly a provincial ROW - so you might have problems getting to use it for an LRT. Plus Dutch Village Road isn't that wide through Fairview and up into Clayton Park. The only road I can think of that might work would be Dunbrack (you could do like Calgary and put the rails in the Centre perhaps?). Willet from Dunbrack might work too, but getting the trail up the hill - probably would work better on Lacewood (grades aren't so bad).
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  #171  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2010, 6:38 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Calgary will have trains on 7th Ave for at least another three decades - just only 1 line will use it once the second one moves into a subway.

Outside of the core Calgary has 100% exclusive right of way which is the real key however to making it fast - no stopping for cars, ever.
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  #172  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2010, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
The problem for me would be the streets in the suburbs and I'm not talking just Bedford. Bayers Road is mostly a provincial ROW - so you might have problems getting to use it for an LRT. Plus Dutch Village Road isn't that wide through Fairview and up into Clayton Park. The only road I can think of that might work would be Dunbrack (you could do like Calgary and put the rails in the Centre perhaps?). Willet from Dunbrack might work too, but getting the trail up the hill - probably would work better on Lacewood (grades aren't so bad).
There's actually a plan to turn part of Bayers Road into a busway.. I am not sure if this is in the 5-year transit plan or not. I also don't remember if there's a plan for a MetroLink (BRT) route to Clayton Park yet, although this is obviously needed. I think part of the bottleneck there was that the transit garage is full and located in Burnside - they are building a new one in suburban Halifax soon.
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  #173  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2010, 6:05 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I`ve been taking some of the discussion from this forum and came up with my own idea of a heavy rail based system, using the existing rail right-of-ways. I`ve taken some creative license in some of the routing and I`ve also added what I think the high speed ferry network would be.

Hope this works - would be interested to get some comments..

From my flickr account.
Also, I haven`t noted areas which could be re-developed around each station - but it can be assumed that Bayers Road, Mumford could be more higher density - the Akerley station would be more of an office centred TOD station and the Bedford stops (mill cove, Kearney Lake and Bedford) would see a combo of higher density residential and commercial - I was thinking the mall and adjacent areas could have more apartments and commercial towers.

Bayers Lake would be a feeder station to the park - which could also have more Class B offices (still focusing Class A in the core).
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  #174  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2010, 6:19 PM
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Very good halifaxboyns

I agree, the only way to achieve a commuter rail system in Halifax is to use existing ROW's; anything else would be too disruptive to existing traffic patterns.

- It would be interesting if there were some way to extend your "green line" out towards Cole Harbour.
- Also, could a spur be created from your "red line" to service Sackville and down towards Windsor. There is an existing ROW there too.

On a side note, here's a link to a little article on the transit history of greater Moncton.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~wyatt/a...oncton-nb.html

The stats are a little dated, and in particular Codiac Transit is now a lot larger than what they state (we now have about 50 busses). but there is still some interesting stuff here.

In particular, I was intrigued to find out that in the 1950's (at least), that CNR operated a commuter rail service between Moncton and Pointe-de-Chene (no doubt for the cottage crowd).

So, commuter rail does have a history in the Maritimes.........perhaps it will rise again!
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  #175  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2010, 7:24 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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It`s interesting that you ask that question about Cole Harbour, I was just looking at Bing Maps and there was an old spur line off the CN rail line to the Autoport (it appears to be a pathway now), but you could easily convert it back and it you expropriate some land along Caldwell Road, and then on the edge of Morris Lake, it looks like there is a narrow sliver of land that would run all the way up to the Portland Hills Bus station - you may have the ability to do a double track most of the way but it looks narrow so you`d need 1 track up to the station. But it looks possible.




From my flickr account.

Last edited by halifaxboyns; Apr 25, 2010 at 7:36 PM.
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  #176  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2010, 8:29 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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I think it is important for people to be thinking of LRT.

Just as a note: There was a proposal to tear up the Joseph Howe track to widen Joseph Howe - I am not sure if it went ahead. Also the Timberlea (Chester spur) track is being torn up and replaced with a paved trail (it could be dug up and a subway line created in the future - then the trail could be replaced on top of the subway line).

Personally I would like to see the peninsula served with short subway lines to take the place of most bus lines on the peninsula. With a good subway system, parking could be minimized on the peninsula. It would also be good to have a subway under the harbour instead of a third harbour bridge crossing.
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  #177  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2010, 9:10 PM
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Has there been a report done to look into the idea of a subway system for HRM? I can only imagine how much it would cost given the amount of rock you'd have to go through - but I wonder if it's been looked at?

The chester spur is mostly a path and the rails have been removed from Joe Howe Drive, but they remain on either side of the street. Joe howe hasn't been widened.

My thought on the chester spur was to keep the line one track for most of the way to Tantallon with side spurs so that cars could pass each other. I don't think it's wide enough for two lines, but if HRM were willing to spend the money to expropriate a wider ROW to include a trail system (well fenced off) then I think that might be worth while.
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  #178  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2010, 9:35 PM
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I think a subway would be prohibitively expensive, especially given the hard granite that Halifax is built on. A line under the harbour would cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

I can't think of any city with a population less than a million people with a subway system..........
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  #179  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2010, 9:44 PM
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I think a subway would be prohibitively expensive, especially given the hard granite that Halifax is built on. A line under the harbour would cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

I can't think of any city with a population less than a million people with a subway system..........
Halifax wouldn't get a subway in the traditional sense, but a tram-train system concentrating into one tunnel in the core would be workable - and is done in many mid sized European cities.
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  #180  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2010, 9:51 PM
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Halifax wouldn't get a subway in the traditional sense, but a tram-train system concentrating into one tunnel in the core would be workable - and is done in many mid sized European cities.
A single underground tunnel running 1-2 km under part of the downtown would be really useful. It would be expensive but not impossible, though maybe it wouldn't be such a good idea to worry about funding something like that initially.
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