Spring Garden Streetscape

[Keith P.]

Well, HRM's planners have gone off the rails again. Take a look at what they propose for SGR:

• Video Link

The chaises are where I lost it. But there is just so much more. Is it a street, or a park?

EDIT: For reasons I cannot decipher, the embedded link fails. But if you paste it into your browser it works fine, go figure. https://youtu.be/SbquokBUYLY

[someone123]

The video link is broken. Is it this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbquokBUYLY

The chaises look a bit odd to me in that they will be very close to the street and there will still be loud diesel buses and trucks close by. Maybe they should have added a representative audio track of diesel engines and panhandlers.

I think the idea of giving more space over to pedestrians is a perfectly reasonable trade-off. This street gets a lot of pedestrian traffic and can't carry much car traffic. In particular there is not enough space for people to walk by when there are a lot of people waiting for the buses, or at least this is how it used to be. Streamlining the roadway down to a lane in each direction means cars can still get through but you eliminate a lot of the weaving and drop off stuff that slows traffic down. Cars can still go down Spring Garden Road and turn off a side street or come up from a side street.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

The video link is broken. Is it this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbquokBUYLY

The chaises look a bit odd to me in that they will be very close to the street and there will still be loud diesel buses and trucks close by. Maybe they should have added a representative audio track of diesel engines and panhandlers.

I think the idea of giving more space over to pedestrians is a perfectly reasonable trade-off. This street gets a lot of pedestrian traffic and can't carry much car traffic. In particular there is not enough space for people to walk by when there are a lot of people waiting for the buses, or at least this is how it used to be. Streamlining the roadway down to a lane in each direction means cars can still get through but you eliminate a lot of the weaving and drop off stuff that slows traffic down. Cars can still go down Spring Garden Road and turn off a side street or come up from a side street.

Both links (your and mine) go to the same video but the embed function for Youtube here in the forum will not process them. Strange.

I think giving more space for pedestrians is perfectly reasonable. It is many of the other things that are very questionable. Aside from the chaises, the tables and chairs are silly, the pergolas useless, and every time a bus stops or a cab drops off/picks up a fare, traffic grinds to a halt. And forget about deliveries or service vehicles. Choking all of the side street access points down to one lane seems a bit absurd as well. And where will the precious cyclists ride? You cannot give them 3 meters clearance in this configuration. Perhaps they go on the sidewalk?

It all seems very half-baked, which is what I suspect the designers were when they came up with this.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Both links (your and mine) go to the same video but the embed function for Youtube here in the forum will not process them. Strange.

For the youtube tag it takes just the alphanumeric code at the end of the URL, the "SbquokBUYLY" part. The instructions are buried at the bottom of the "BBCode guide".

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Aside from the chaises, the tables and chairs are silly

One thing I wasn't clear on is if the tables and chairs would be added by the city or if that just represents additional sidewalk space that can be allocated to businesses.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

The chaises look a bit odd to me in that they will be very close to the street and there will still be loud diesel buses and trucks close by. Maybe they should have added a representative audio track of diesel engines and panhandlers.

Maybe the chaises are for the panhandlers.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

For the youtube tag it takes just the alphanumeric code at the end of the URL, the "SbquokBUYLY" part. The instructions are buried at the bottom of the "BBCode guide".

Ah, I had forgotten about that. Seems an odd way to do it.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Both links (your and mine) go to the same video but the embed function for Youtube here in the forum will not process them. Strange.

I think giving more space for pedestrians is perfectly reasonable. It is many of the other things that are very questionable. Aside from the chaises, the tables and chairs are silly, the pergolas useless, and every time a bus stops or a cab drops off/picks up a fare, traffic grinds to a halt. And forget about deliveries or service vehicles. Choking all of the side street access points down to one lane seems a bit absurd as well. And where will the precious cyclists ride? You cannot give them 3 meters clearance in this configuration. Perhaps they go on the sidewalk?

It all seems very half-baked, which is what I suspect the designers were when they came up with this.

The link worked for me.

I like the increased space for pedestrians, but had the same questions:
- Bus stops will slow down traffic as there is no longer a viable way to pass them.
- Deliveries? Sounds like a mess.
- Cyclists? No provisions unless they plan to make adjacent streets cycle-priority (or whatever they call it). There are bike racks so of course they are expecting cyclists.
- Pergola bus stops are great in sunny weather, but what about the other 300 days a year when there is some form of precipitation falling? Shouldn't they be sheltered?
- The walk-through section of the video reminded me of a cyclists view as they are weaving around unsuspecting pedestrians on the sidewalk - maybe that is their plan for bicycles?

Overall I actually like the idea, but either somebody hasn't thought through the details, or they just don't care what happens on the street as long as it looks nice.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Maybe the chaises are for the panhandlers.

They will likely use them.

[someone123]

The bus pergolas make no sense, but maybe they are trying to show a design that incorporates both a transparent roof and a solar screen, which is a useful combination.

[ILoveHalifax]

No change rooms so I will have to wear my Speedo under my clothes when I head out to sun bath on the chaises

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

The bus pergolas make no sense, but maybe they are trying to show a design that incorporates both a transparent roof and a solar screen, which is a useful combination.

I could see that. Shouldn't jump to conclusions using only a CGI video.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

No change rooms so I will have to wear my Speedo under my clothes when I head out to sun bath on the chaises

LOL

[RoshanMcG]

Hasn't the "stoplet" that has been there for over a year already made it so traffic behind buses stops when the buses do?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by RoshanMcG

Hasn't the "stoplet" that has been there for over a year already made it so traffic behind buses stops when the buses do?

It disappeared for the winter but I assume it has returned now. But, yes, it ties up traffic terribly. And looks horrible of course.

[IanWatson]

Morris is going to be the cycling priority street that connects Lower Water, Hollis, and South Park. I think the decision was made early in the SGR process that, given the limited amount of space, pedestrians and buses were going to come first.

[Summerville]

I don't think that you can blame the traffic issues on Spring Garden Road to the stoplet which I am indifferent about.

There is huge issue with parked cars on the northern side of Spring Garden road. Ultimately, Spring Garden is really a walking street which makes sense for the new re-do.

Stores along the street have generally done really well from foot traffic and the going rent for ground floor commercial space is an indicator. I recall hearing that it is near the most expensive in the city, maybe the province. Park Lane is the exception. They tried to take advantage of the location on Spring Garden road, but soon learned that most people tended to window shop on their walk downtown. Then buy later. Or just having a store on the street is good marketing in the long run.

And that circles back to traffic. Do you really think that you can get this same business activity from cars stuck in traffic? Most shoppers arriving by car, stay clear of SPR and park on the side streets or in underground parking, which will become more plentiful as new development occurs in the area.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Summerville

I don't think that you can blame the traffic issues on Spring Garden Road to the stoplet which I am indifferent about.

There is huge issue with parked cars on the northern side of Spring Garden road. Ultimately, Spring Garden is really a walking street which makes sense for the new re-do.

If parking on the north side is an issue then it is quite easy to resolve, just remove it.

Stores along the street have generally done really well from foot traffic and the going rent for ground floor commercial space is an indicator. I recall hearing that it is near the most expensive in the city, maybe the province. Park Lane is the exception. They tried to take advantage of the location on Spring Garden road, but soon learned that most people tended to window shop on their walk downtown. Then buy later. Or just having a store on the street is good marketing in the long run.

Park Lane was a mistake from the day it was conceived. It began as a high-end mall that overestimated the ability of Haligonans in the late '80s/early '90s to be willing to pay for luxury goods. Then the traditional resistance of citizens to use parkades in malls (see also Scotia Square) and the death of the mall generally overtook it and it has remained in the doldrums ever since.

And that circles back to traffic. Do you really think that you can get this same business activity from cars stuck in traffic? Most shoppers arriving by car, stay clear of SPR and park on the side streets or in underground parking, which will become more plentiful as new development occurs in the area.

Most shoppers do not arrive by car unless they are in cabs. All on-street parking on SGR could disappear tomorrow and not many businesses would be affected. What does affect them is an inability to have delivery trucks and service vehicles access their premises, or have people dropped off or picked up. This plan will eliminate that. We see the idiocy along Argyle St now in the part that has been reduced to a single lane with little provision for pullover or accommodation for delivery vehicles. HRM (read: Mason) recently had additional benches installed to prevent this from happening. The heavy hand of planning dogma does not translate well into the real world of business.

[atbw]

From the 'Shape Your City' site, a little context on the areas of SGR - in particular what to expect from the side streets. Looks like lots of room for loading in this and any parking being relegated to underground.



Full doc
https://www.shapeyourcityhalifax.ca/...ocuments/14662

As for cycling, Morris/University is slated to be the the main East-West corridor. Traffic on SGR right now is slow enough between buses, cars, and crosswalks that I generally feel safe in mixed traffic.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by atbw

From the 'Shape Your City' site, a little context on the areas of SGR - in particular what to expect from the side streets. Looks like lots of room for loading in this and any parking being relegated to underground.

Easy for a city planner to say regarding loading. Try moving a heavy pallet of goods down those sidewalks. Assuming you could even get your truck onto one of those side streets in the first place. This is shaping up to be another HRM planning disaster.