Thunder Bay | "Hors Espoir" or "How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Dump"

[vid]

The city knows me, just not by this name.

[lio45]

Oh I'm sure they do. I'm known too, in my main two cities. Somewhat negatively, in one case, and positively, in the second. These experiences have made me realize how gratifying it is to be appreciated at the municipal level. FWIW this is one argument in favor of this project, if I ever have enough free time and spare money anytime soon (i.e. I trust I'd be welcomed in TB)

I would hope that you are recognized by the city as a force for good - can't be sure though, it's possible they'd instead have labeled you a royal pain in the ass. Same thing, slightly different perspective

[vid]

Depends on who. The city administration, for the most part, doesn't have any issues with me. The goals of my group are pretty in line with the goals of the city. The councillors might think otherwise but they're not the most important part of city government in Ontario and since many are new, I still have to make an impression on them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Sucks that Thunder Bay is so far away from here and so inconveniently located (for visits / going back and forth). I'm already geographically spread a bit more than would be ideal (one upside of that is that I'm having eggs in various baskets, but it doesn't make up for inconvenience of management), and I have no possible reason to ever go to NWO. If my gf had relatives there (like the typical Anglo, she has family in places like Calgary and Halifax) then that would already be something.

A project like that in my hometown's downtown, I wouldn't hesitate. (And I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one interested.)

Still not saying 100% no, though. You only live once, but a street named after you lives forever.

Also I'd absolutely love to see the face of the people at the city's economic development commission when they'd ask how come an outsider like me got interested in investing in TB and I'd link them to this thread and say it's all thanks to this 'vid' guy...

That building's location (the fact that it's in Thunder Bay and not a less remote place) is likely a big reason why no one has scooped it up yet.

[vid]

The whole neighbourhood has a stigma against it locally, as well. No one wants to be the one to try to turn it around. The slum lords who own most of the properties here are content sucking dry the wallets of the poor, and those with the means to actually gentrify this neighbourhood are more focused on the north end.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That building's location (the fact that it's in Thunder Bay and not a less remote place) is likely a big reason why no one has scooped it up yet.

Of course.

However, from what vid just said, it might be an interesting deal from a local and long-term perspective - it's in a centrally-located neighborhood that hasn't yet been "discovered", and could be gentrified eventually.

My gf would hate the idea of me opening yet another new front though. I'm already pretty scattered all over the place without adding a project in another faraway location...

[lio45]

That huge (for such a small city) building on the NE corner of May and George is pretty impressive. Looks to be from ~1930 based on the style...?

[kcexpress69]

Everything I wanted to know about Thunder Bay, but was a afraid to ask!! Nice thread!!

[Fresh]

A vivid documenting of the end of the world - thank you very much!

[James Bond Agent 007]

Clouds.

[gothamite]

thanks for the pics. My sister and her family lived for a couple of years in Fort William (in the late 60's, and I don't think Thunder Bay had come into being yet). As I recall she lived in a new development at the time on a street called Agate Bay, and in the distance from the back of her house you could see Mt. McKay. Driving there I remember little kids of Indian background (I know, that's not PC! Okay, "indigenous." ) coming up to the car asking for candy. Also I recall there was still an Eaton's store in downtown Ft. Wm. (or was it in Port Arthur?). Great scenery everywhere, like the Sleeping Giant. One day we drove to the Minnesota border, just beautiful.

[vid]

Eatons was in Port Arthur, Fort William had Chapples, a local department store.

Agate Bay was built in the early 1960s, part of the Northwood Park development. The high school they built just after those houses were built closed last year due to low enrollment and structural damage caused by being built in a swamp.

[gothamite]

Originally Posted by vid

Eatons was in Port Arthur, Fort William had Chapples, a local department store.

Agate Bay was built in the early 1960s, part of the Northwood Park development. The high school they built just after those houses were built closed last year due to low enrollment and structural damage caused by being built in a swamp.

thanks. I remember Chapples now. My sister shopped there. Don't recall whether there was a Simpsons or Bay store in the area. I think in the intervening years (50+!) a mall was built, correct?

[vid]

Simpsons-Sears was built as an anchor for a mall located between the two cities, across the river (which has since been expanded and re-routed as part of a flood prevention system for Fort William's east end) from the CLE, the grounds of which is largely occupied by a cinema (the only one in the city). The racetrack was gone by the time I was born. That mall, being the only real mall in the region, does quite well, with low vacancy rates and high customer volumes. It's pushing the limits of its property so parking is a pain in the ass sometimes, they have parking lots across and up the street for busy days.

I don't recall there ever being a Bay here, other than the actual Fort itself being a Hudson Bay trading post. The building they traded furs in after the fort closed is still standing on Simpson Street, but most of what stood on this street when you lived here is long gone.

Speaking of malls, there was one built not too far from your sister's old house in the late 1960s, its still around but like most malls, not very thriving.

Chapples closed in 1981 after a fire. If you want more pessimism, check out this article about Victoriaville Mall: http://www.chroniclejournal.com/opin...ff2156934.html

[greyraven8]

Originally Posted by lio45

That huge (for such a small city) building on the NE corner of May and George is pretty impressive. Looks to be from ~1930 based on the style...?

Without scrolling back through the photos, I'm guessing you are referring to "The Royal Eddie"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tbaymu...-qDLB5z-qTcz65

Let's just say its heyday has long passed.

For an optimistic appraisal of its current condition I'll leave the opportunity for a commentary to Vid.

[lio45]

Thanks for the link. "Built in 1928"! After a decade an a half in real estate, I've been getting pretty good at narrowing the year of construction down just based on style.

It was vacant, as of recently...? I'm curious to hear what vid thinks.

[Murphy de la Sucre]

Perfectly being silent hilled by the thick fog.

[vid]

The Royal Edward Arms is a concrete slipform structure built in 1927-1928 by various local businessmen who collectively invested money into building a modern hotel in Fort William (at the time, it lacked one; Port Arthur had two). The story behind that is actually really interesting in terms of how everyone in the city rallied around its construction. They were really proud of it.

The hotel operated until about 1980, with decline in the neighbourhood leading to the failure of it and other hotels. The architectural style is art deco based with modest gothic-inspiration geometric decoration, which is roughly par for the course in Canadian art deco. (We were less daring with our art deco than the Americans were.) The Queen stayed in the hotel once in the 1970s, near the end of its life as a hotel.

After sitting vacant for a few years, in the mid-1980s it was purchased by the City of Thunder Bay and control of the building was given to a non-profit called Thunder Bay Community Housing, which renovated it into a geared-to-income apartment building for seniors 65+. It operated this way until about 2003, when government reforms folded TBCH into the supra-municipal social housing agency, which changed direction of the building and opened it up to single adults under 65. Over the following decade, the building became home to increasing numbers of single adults who suffered from drug additions and chronic unemployment, and the reduced provincial funding of the social housing agency resulted in neglect of the building to the point that the elevators ceased functioning.

In 2015, the city revoked the right of the social housing agency to use the building due to mismanagement and sold the building to a local investor, who promptly made the exact same mistake the social housing agency made with the building (renting it out to unemployed adults with drug addictions). For a time after the sale, the new owner actually had a sign that read "rentals by the month, week, day". About a year into this, the building was condemned by the local health unit because tenants reported the building was being overrun with human waste, discarded needles and garbage, and that the elevators were still not functioning. These were "rectified" a few months later, and the owners implemented a screening policy for tenants, but the building was still in a state of disrepair. I'm not sure if the building has working elevators yet.

Last year, the local owner of the building fell ill and has since been divesting his buildings (the bank facade we've discussed in the past is one of them). This building is currently on the market. A group of investors from Toronto made an offer, but it was contingent on the city relocating all social service access points out of the area which is not fiscally or socially viable, so the deal fell through. It is currently listed on the market for $850,000.

Since it is a slipform concrete building, it's essentially indestructible. If you had the money, you could completely gut the structure down to its concrete bones and start over from scratch. Good luck getting a return on investment, though; the homeless shelter is across the street and the entire neighbourhood has a severe negative stigma attached to it in the local market. Several developers from Ontario and Manitoba have looked at it and decided not to go ahead with anything. You could continue operating it as a slum, but there are liabilities there. I'm not sure how many fires have happened in it since the change in ownership in 2015 but I know it's more than one.



For anyone else reading this far: I was in Southern Ontario for a week recently and hit up as many cities as I could considering the weather (it wasn't very good) and the time I had (I was attending a 9-5 training course in Guelph and used the city as my base of operations). Multiple photo threads will follow. As I edit them, I'm looking at at least six right now, but it may grow to as many as 10 or 11. I've also got plans for some more Thunder Bay stuff. There's something I did in Toronto that I want to try here, since I've never done it here in that scale before.

[greyraven8]

Originally Posted by gothamite

thanks. I remember Chapples now. My sister shopped there. Don't recall whether there was a Simpsons or Bay store in the area. I think in the intervening years (50+!) a mall was built, correct?

Haven't researched it to confirm myself but one or two on a local Facebook page say that their was a Hudson's Bay store on Victoria Avenue (in building where Barbie's store currently is).

One of the more historical local Facebook pages also has a picture of a Hudson's Bay store on Simpson street - but that is from 80 plus years ago.

[vid]

The Royal Block at 301 Simpson is where HBC conducted fur trading operations after Fort William (the fort) was decommissioned. The Victoria Block at 415 East Victoria Avenue is on record as being Walker's Drug Store and Walker's Department Store as early as the 1920s (the building was built in 1901) so it may have been a Hudson Bay department store at some point, but it wasn't for long.