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  #21  
Old Posted May 24, 2016, 11:38 AM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Ok, here's the full list for UK Travel To Work Areas, they are a commuting type definition like a US MSA but not exactly the same.



Map of TTWAs
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  #22  
Old Posted May 24, 2016, 2:37 PM
memph memph is offline
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It's interesting just how little manufacturing there is in London, New York and DC compared to other big cities like LA, Bay Area, Chicago, Toronto and even Boston.
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  #23  
Old Posted May 24, 2016, 11:34 PM
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It's interesting just how little manufacturing there is in London, New York and DC compared to other big cities like LA, Bay Area, Chicago, Toronto and even Boston.
DC never had much of any manufacturing, so it's not too surprising. I knew NYC would be low, though not that low. Part of it is historically a lot of blue collar jobs in NYC were related to wholesale trade and distribution, until very recently NYC had more port-related jobs than finance jobs. But those jobs wouldn't count under manufacturing.
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  #24  
Old Posted May 24, 2016, 11:36 PM
nei nei is offline
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Interestingly to see San Jose (Silicon Valley) still so high. There's still some manufacturing, I assume related to engineering R&D still left. The San Francisco MSA is a third by %; its high-tech I'd assume is software and web-related and little engineering and hardware.
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  #25  
Old Posted May 24, 2016, 11:41 PM
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I don't think most people think of LA as a manufacturing town, but look at those huge numbers. LA has more than twice the % of workers employed in manufacturing as NYC. By CSA LA probably has twice the overall manufacturing workers as NYC, despite being considerably smaller.
A comparison with 1950 would have been very different results. I suspect NYC, and the Northeast Corridor had a steeper fall in manufacturing than most of the country [Great Lakes appears worse as white-collar jobs haven't replaced the losses].

In 1950, 28 percent of the city's employed workers were in manufacturing, two points above the national figure. The percentage of the city workforce employed in manufacturing had been declining since 1910, when it had peaked at just over 40 percent. However, except during the 1930s, the actual number of manufacturing workers in the city had risen each decade of the century. When World War II ended, New York manufacturing was at an all-time high.


In 1950 seven of the nation's ten largest cities had a higher percentage of their workforces engaged in manufacturing than New York did. Nonetheless, in absolute terms New York City had a goods-producing economy unprecedented in size, output, and complexity. In 1947, New York had more manufacturing jobs than Philadelphia, Detroit, Los Angeles, and Boston put together.


https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/...n-newyork.html
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  #26  
Old Posted May 25, 2016, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nei View Post
Interestingly to see San Jose (Silicon Valley) still so high. There's still some manufacturing, I assume related to engineering R&D still left. The San Francisco MSA is a third by %; its high-tech I'd assume is software and web-related and little engineering and hardware.
Yes, tech mostly but there is some additional industry. For example, Tesla manufactures all of its vehicles in the Bay Area.
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  #27  
Old Posted May 25, 2016, 1:09 AM
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Little off topic, but doesnt Tesla manufacture its cars at what used to be the old Toyota-Chevrolet (NUUMI?) joint plant in Fremont?
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  #28  
Old Posted May 25, 2016, 8:55 AM
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Originally Posted by nei View Post
Interestingly to see San Jose (Silicon Valley) still so high. There's still some manufacturing, I assume related to engineering R&D still left. The San Francisco MSA is a third by %; its high-tech I'd assume is software and web-related and little engineering and hardware.
Many (maybe most?) of the manufacturing jobs in the San Francisco MSA have nothing to do with the tech industry, though a large chunk of silicon valley is in the SF MSA. Gillig manufactures buses here, Tesla manufactures cars, there are a bunch of oil refineries, a sugar refinery, asphalt plants, etc.

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Little off topic, but doesnt Tesla manufacture its cars at what used to be the old Toyota-Chevrolet (NUUMI?) joint plant in Fremont?
Yup!
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  #29  
Old Posted May 25, 2016, 5:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 View Post
Little off topic, but doesnt Tesla manufacture its cars at what used to be the old Toyota-Chevrolet (NUUMI?) joint plant in Fremont?
I think Fremont would get counted as part of the San Francisco MSA, as it is in Alameda County. San Jose MSA is only Santa Clara County.
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  #30  
Old Posted May 25, 2016, 8:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
A comparison with 1950 would have been very different results.
...
In 1950 seven of the nation's ten largest cities had a higher percentage of their workforces engaged in manufacturing than New York did. Nonetheless, in absolute terms New York City had a goods-producing economy unprecedented in size, output, and complexity. In 1947, New York had more manufacturing jobs than Philadelphia, Detroit, Los Angeles, and Boston put together.[/I]

https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/...n-newyork.html
The Detroit MSA had 560,000 manufacturing jobs in 1950 so that for NYC MSA to have more of these jobs than the four cities mentioned is pretty impressive.

I found a secondary source (which in turn references Census and BLS) that listed some data for Detroit MSA and City:
https://www.ccimef.org/.../ARES-2014...In-Detriot.pdf
Detrot area Manufacturing jobs (x1000) from Census data (place of residence)

Year MSA City
==== === ====
1950 560 349
1970 589 201
1980 559 113
1990 474 69
2000 488 65
2010 232 20

While these are for place or residence, the place of work for the decades that were available are not significantly different.
Note that big drop between 2000 and 2010.

I could not get the search function at the BLS website to retrieve 1950 manufacturing jobs for all cities, perhaps someone else could. 1980 is also a key year since 1979 is said to the be nation-wide peak in the number of manufacturing jobs.
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  #31  
Old Posted May 25, 2016, 9:19 PM
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I knew Detroit (city) experienced a big drop but didn't realize it was that big. The number of manufacturing jobs in 1950 is about the same as the entire current working age population. % of jobs in manufacturing would have been probably over 50% back then, considering a larger portion of the population back then were children (not working age), and women were much less numerous in the work force.

Also pretty crazy how Detroit went from a slight uptick in jobs in the 90s to a huge drop in the 00s including a 50% drop in the suburbs (which only had one other decade with a decline, and only 9%, in the 80s). I think many other cities would be similar though - a slow decline in the late 20th century, and then huge drop in the 00s.
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  #32  
Old Posted May 25, 2016, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
I knew Detroit (city) experienced a big drop but didn't realize it was that big. The number of manufacturing jobs in 1950 is about the same as the entire current working age population. % of jobs in manufacturing would have been probably over 50% back then, considering a larger portion of the population back then were children (not working age), and women were much less numerous in the work force.
This should help answer your question.

Census - Detroit City and MSA Employment by Place of Residence (x1000)

HTML Code:
       --------- City ----------     ---------- MSA ----------
Year   Total   Manuf.   % Manuf.     Total   Manuf.   % Manuf.
====   =====   ======   ========     =====   ======   ========  
1950     759      349       45.9      1193      560       46.9
1970     561      201       35.8      1655      589       35.6
1980     395      113       28.6      1776      559       31.5
1990     336       69       20.5      1916      474       24.7
2000     332       65       19.6      2058      488       23.7
2010     202       20        9.9      1622      232       14.3


The OP's 2015 data for the Detroit MSA are 229,200 manufacturing jobs, 11.84% (not drastically different from the 2010 MSA numbers directly above indicating a loss of about 3,000 manufacturing jobs in 5 years).

Flint Michigan probably has even worse percentages now since General Motors once employed 80,000 workers in 1950s out of a population of 196,000 and now employs about 8,000 or 10% of the peak number out of a population of about 100,000.
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  #33  
Old Posted May 27, 2016, 2:18 AM
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Interesting thread..

I was a little taken back by LA, but when you think about it manufacturing isn't all about planes, trains and automobiles.I imagine LA has a huge fashion manufacturing industry.
Ditto for music gear.

Now,would those constantly revolving Hollywood movie sets be considered manufacturing?
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  #34  
Old Posted May 27, 2016, 2:47 AM
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One thing you have to remember when talking about these manufacturing jobs in Days of Yore is that manufacturing has gotten so productive they need only a fraction of the workers they used to have in order to produce the same amount of goods. For the example of Detroit mentioned above, here is a scan I made of a National Geographic article from 1930 or thereabouts. Notice in the first full paragraph it mentions that a single auto factory usually employed 55-65K each. Nowadays an auto factory is considered to be huge if it employs 5K or 6K, and most are more along the lines of 2 or 3K. And I'm pretty sure they churn out more cars per factory per year than the circa 1930 ones did.

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  #35  
Old Posted May 27, 2016, 3:01 PM
nei nei is offline
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
Interesting thread..

I was a little taken back by LA, but when you think about it manufacturing isn't all about planes, trains and automobiles.I imagine LA has a huge fashion manufacturing industry.
Ditto for music gear.

Now,would those constantly revolving Hollywood movie sets be considered manufacturing?
Planes? Los Angeles has been a large aerospace center for a long time; a postwar boom in defense contracting was responsible. San Jose had some of that, as well.

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-02-...fornia-defense

This article breakdowns manufacturing products in Southern California. #1 for Los Angeles County is Petroleum and Coal Products (Beverly Hills High School has an oil well on its campus). Aerospace is only 8%, Apparel only 5%. By dollar value, by employment may be different. Southern California, has lost manufacturing jobs at about the national average since 1988. So by % relative to the national average, Los Angeles would have been about the same. Its losses were concentrated in the early 1990s, as defense contracts dried up.

http://laedc.org/reports/Manufacturing_2011.pdf

During World War II, southern California’s factories employed 2 million people and produced 300,000 airplanes, or one every 15 minutes in some plants.

http://equitablegrowth.org/report/eq...pace-industry/

The mass migration to California in the early and mid 20th century, while seemingly similar to today's sunbelt migration; is different in one big way: California by the end of migration was wealthier than the national average by far, and more advanced by health, education or development standards. The current sunbelt migration is to poorer to average parts of the US.

Between 1929 and 1945, California’s population swelled by nearly 40 percent, yet this population achieved the greatest per-capita economic growth in the nation, with average incomes 40 percent higher by 1945 than the national average.

http://equitablegrowth.org/report/eq...pace-industry/

Hmm, just found an article on earlier western migration vs current sunbelt migration:

Adding to the anomaly is a historic reversal in the patterns of migration within the United States. Throughout almost all of the nation’s history, Americans tended to move from places where wages were lower to places where wages were higher. Horace Greeley’s advice to “Go West, young man” finds validation, for example, in historical data showing that per-capita income was higher in America’s emerging frontier cities, such as Chicago in the 1850s or Denver in 1880s, than back east.

But over the last generation this trend, too, has reversed. Since 1980, the states and metro areas with the highest and fastest-growing per capita incomes have generally seen hardly, if any, net domestic in-migration, and in many notable examples have seen more people move away to other parts of the country than move in. Today, the preponderance of domestic migration is from areas with high and rapidly growing incomes to relatively poorer areas where incomes are growing at a slower pace, if at all.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...iverge/417372/
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  #36  
Old Posted May 27, 2016, 3:30 PM
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San Jose MSA numbers may be inflated

https://twitter.com/berubea1/status/735924540996489217
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  #37  
Old Posted May 27, 2016, 4:01 PM
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San Jose MSA numbers may be inflated

https://twitter.com/berubea1/status/735924540996489217
If that's the case, then every city's numbers are going to be inflated.

I was actually thinking about something similar the other day: If you have a factory with 100 workers, 20 of whom are administrative personnel and 80 of whom are assembly line workers, would the 20 administrative workers count as "manufacturing" workers as well? I presume they are.
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  #38  
Old Posted May 27, 2016, 10:54 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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I'm pretty sure it does count as manufacturing is the primary function of the business.

Which leads to another factor which may exaggerate the decline of manufacturing employment, outsourcing.

40 years ago most manufacturing businesses may have employed their own in-house payroll dept, accounting, office cleaning, IT suppliers, canteen catering etc, now they are much more likely to buy in those things from other businesses in the services sector.

That in itself leads to fewer jobs in the manufacturing sector and more in the services sector.

I don't know if it's still true but when I worked in insurance 15 years ago it was commonly said that large German manufacturers usually kept things like accountancy, insurance broking and tax compliance in-house (therefore counting as manufacturing employment) rather than outsource it to PWC or E&Y etc like a typical US or UK company would do.
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  #39  
Old Posted May 30, 2016, 9:34 PM
TarHeelJ TarHeelJ is offline
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Although NC's Triad is considered a CSA now (was formerly an MSA), it has somewhere around 80K to 100K manufacturing jobs. I can't find the actual numbers, but this article shows Greensboro MSA having 51,500 in 2011 - including a loss of 10,800 over the previous 4 years. I'm sure Winston-Salem has about that many as well...I'm guessing this list only includes larger MSAs?

If Durham were included with Raleigh it would be much higher too.
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  #40  
Old Posted May 30, 2016, 10:45 PM
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North Carolina manufacturing jobs

Triad MSAs
Greensboro-High Point: 54,600
Winston-Salem: 31,800
Burlington: 9,000

Triangle MSAs
Raleigh: 33,900
Durham-Chapel Hill: 29,400
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