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  #201  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
You do realize that I could falsify his claim with a single example of a society that didn't practice slavery right? In any case, what is your point? I never claimed that slavery did not exist before the transatlantic slave trade. In fact I actually pointed out that most slaves at the time were the spoils of war, which appears to be the case in most of your examples.
no, that's not the case in most of my examples.
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  #202  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
It's not what you include in your historical narrative that makes you a liar. It's what you omit in your historical narrative that makes you a liar. Just look at your 3 point summary of the history of slavery in your deleted post. It is an embarrassment - historical revisionism at its worst. You should be ashamed of yourself. That must be why you tried to delete it.

I mean, when you have such a ridiculous take on history combined with statements like "In the USA, we could only tolerate so many blacks" and "I refuse to use the term African-American," people are gonna draw their own conclusions.
I deleted my post because I actually wanted to stop talking to you.

You seem to have a serious issue with history.

"In the USA, we could only tolerate so many blacks"- What's wrong with that statement? It has been proven throughout our history. Freed blacks did decently well in Virginia before Africans began to be imported rapidly in the late 17th century. After more blacks came to America, even the free blacks were victims of the racism against blacks(free or not, native or not). The slave codes of 1705 weren't written at that particular time for no reason. Also, in the North, after the Civil War, blacks enjoyed many more freedoms than in the South. Although this general pattern continued up until the Civil Rights era, we see something happen in the early 1900s. As soon as more and more blacks began to move north, you start to see laws and practices become the norm that marginalized blacks. This only happened when the black population reached a point to where the local white population would not put up with it anymore. Our history is clear, more blacks=less toleration by whites. If this makes you draw any conclusion besides learning something, I don't know what to tell you.

"I refuse to use the term African-American"- Why do you keep bringing this up? Why don't you include the entire statement I made with that quotation you bring up every post? >>"Black Americans are American as apple pie. Most of them came here before 1800, while most whites came after that point. It's one reason I refuse to use the term African-American. It "others" them when they are American and have contributed to our history and culture as much as any population could that represents 13% of the population"(total racists right there! LOL)<<What does it have to do with slavery? Are you so narrowly focused that you can only equate blacks with slavery? If so, its obvious why you haven't been able to follow this conversation. You're also just trying to paint me as some racist KKK member with every word you pick. It's lame, it's not going to work. But I know why you would do that. You've added nothing to the conversation and you don't know what you're talking about(about what you do know or admitting what you don't know) so of course, you will end up trying to smear me as some racist redneck. You suck lol
     
     
  #203  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Slavery in the Islamic world:
You forgot about Mamluks and Janissaries, if we're just listing premodern examples of slavery now. None of these examples of course compare to the big one, the 800 pound gorilla of slavery, but keep going, knock yourself out.
     
     
  #204  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:17 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
You do realize that I could falsify his claim with a single example of a society that didn't practice slavery right? In any case, what is your point? I never claimed that slavery did not exist before the transatlantic slave trade. In fact I actually pointed out that most slaves at the time were the spoils of war, which appears to be the case in most of your examples.
Yeah, you could, but haven't for some weird reason...
     
     
  #205  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
You forgot about Mamluks and Janissaries, if we're just listing premodern examples of slavery now. None of these examples of course compare to the big one, the 800 pound gorilla of slavery, but keep going, knock yourself out.
Do you have any idea of the estimates of Africans sold into the Atlantic slave trade? Now, do you know the estimates(which admittedly are more wild in variation because records are harder to come by) of how many Africans and Europeans were taken in the Islamic slave trade?

Look those numbers up and then come back.
     
     
  #206  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Yeah, you could, but haven't for some weird reason...
The reason is, why the hell would I allow you to shift the burden of proof when it was you who made an unsupportable categorical statement? We went over this already, but I'm feeling generous I'll throw you a bone - the Sami people. There, you happy? I guess I could play the game that dc_denizen is playing and just list a bunch of random groups and nations that never practiced slavery. But you already knew your statement was easy to disprove.
     
     
  #207  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
The reason is, why the hell would I allow you to shift the burden of proof when it was you who made an unsupportable categorical statement? We went over this already, but I'm feeling generous I'll throw you a bone - the Sami people. There, you happy? I guess I could play the game that dc_denizen is playing and just list a bunch of random groups and nations that never practiced slavery. But you already knew your statement was easy to disprove.
You win. You named a group of people according to Wikipedia number between 80,000-100,000 today.
     
     
  #208  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
"In the USA, we could only tolerate so many blacks"- What's wrong with that statement?

...

Our history is clear, more blacks=less toleration by whites.
Do you include yourself in that statement? More black people = less tolerance by you? I don't see how you can make a statement like that and then conveniently exclude yourself. Maybe instead of saying "we" you should only speak for yourself.
     
     
  #209  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:40 PM
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I mean, I did say "Please name a significant place on Earth that never had slavery." in my original post, but I'm too tired, again, you win.
     
     
  #210  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:43 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Do you include yourself in that statement? More black people = less tolerance by you? I don't see how you can make a statement like that and then conveniently exclude yourself. Maybe instead of saying "we" you should only speak for yourself.
Dude, you are literally showing everyone exactly what I have been saying about you all along. You have no concept of looking at history. I was speaking about our history. Not 2019. Jesus. We=white Americans in history.
     
     
  #211  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:45 PM
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Dude, you are literally showing everyone exactly what I have been saying about you all along. You have no concept of looking at history. I was speaking about our history. Not 2019. Jesus. We=white Americans in history.
"The past is never dead. It's not even past."
     
     
  #212  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
I mean, I did say "Please name a significant place on Earth that never had slavery." in my original post, but I'm too tired, again, you win.
No actually you said "Slavery has been all over the world in every corner. Should every human of every culture(to include black Americans, since their ancestors owned slaves in Africa) feel perpetually bad for something that happened 160-200 years ago?"
     
     
  #213  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:58 PM
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No actually you said "Slavery has been all over the world in every corner. Should every human of every culture(to include black Americans, since their ancestors owned slaves in Africa) feel perpetually bad for something that happened 160-200 years ago?"
You win man, you're right. I forgot I said that. I should be more careful with my words in the future. I should have said, "99% of humans practiced slavery, making it a near-universal practice." Leaving that 1% would have kept you from searching Google for the Sami people lol and ended this conversation two days ago.

Enjoy the win.
     
     
  #214  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:59 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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"The past is never dead. It's not even past."
Well, fortunately, legal slavery is in the past. So there's that.
     
     
  #215  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 8:01 PM
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Europeans get a bad rap for slavery...more than most...because these empires were at their peak when the practice was at its peak and unlike anything before them, they had vast empires and logistics to sustain these far flung colonies and thus the Atlantic slave trade was born. No one before Europe had the capability to mechanize the slave trade the way Europe did and by the time the European powers were on a steady decline, the practice itself was on its way out. Americans knew it was bad as early as the Revolutionary war era. The Europeans banned it long before we did.
     
     
  #216  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 8:19 PM
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Well, fortunately, legal slavery is in the past. So there's that.
If only it was that easy to erase history.
     
     
  #217  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 9:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Europeans get a bad rap for slavery...more than most...because these empires were at their peak when the practice was at its peak and unlike anything before them, they had vast empires and logistics to sustain these far flung colonies and thus the Atlantic slave trade was born. No one before Europe had the capability to mechanize the slave trade the way Europe did and by the time the European powers were on a steady decline, the practice itself was on its way out. Americans knew it was bad as early as the Revolutionary war era. The Europeans banned it long before we did.
Europeans do get a bad rap for slavery. You're right that it's probably an accident of history that Europeans became the most prolific slavers. But the real reason we care about the transatlantic slave trade more than say the slavery practiced by the Ottomans or the Tehuelche of Patagonia, is more immediate and present - It has had by far the biggest impact on the modern world, and it will continue to have repercussions far into the future. Our entire political culture today, with its deep divisions and acrimony reflects the far reaching legacy of slavery. Even the things we talk about daily in this forum, the growth and decline of cities, poverty, crime all bear the mark of slavery. Some want to put history in a box, bury it or pretend that there is a clean dividing line between the past (when "we could only tolerate so many blacks") and the present (when we suddenly became tolerant?). What people like jtown fail to realize about history is - we are living in it.
     
     
  #218  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 9:56 PM
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https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...d-13902101.php


https://haasinstitute.berkeley.edu/r...ay-area-part-2


"Whites make up a majority of the eastern Bay Area counties, and are a majority of Napa, Marin and Sonoma counties. Even in diverse counties like Contra Costa and Alameda, whites are a majority in cities such as Walnut Creek, Concord, Lafayette, Moraga, Pleasant Hill, Martinez, Berkeley, Pleasanton, and Livermore.

Cities with the highest proportion of whites in the Bay Area are Belvedere (87.6 percent), Sausalito (84.9 percent), Mill Valley (83.4 percent), Sebastopol (83.2 percent) and Yountville (82.2 percent), and the cities with the highest proportion of Asian Americans relative to their population in their respective county are:

Alameda County (30.0 percent): Piedmont (70.3 percent)

Contra Costa County (16.7 percent): Lafayette (76.7 percent)

Marin County (6.0 percent): Belvedere (87.6 percent)

Napa County (8.0 percent): Yountville (82.2 percent)

San Mateo County (28.2 percent): San Carlos (69.8 percent)

Santa Clara County (36.3 percent): Monte Sereno (76.6 percent)

Solano County (15.6 percent): Rio Vista (76.7 percent)

Sonoma County (4.0 percent): Sebastopol (83.2 percent)"
What's wrong with a place being majority white?
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  #219  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 10:59 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Europeans do get a bad rap for slavery. You're right that it's probably an accident of history that Europeans became the most prolific slavers. But the real reason we care about the transatlantic slave trade more than say the slavery practiced by the Ottomans or the Tehuelche of Patagonia, is more immediate and present - It has had by far the biggest impact on the modern world, and it will continue to have repercussions far into the future. Our entire political culture today, with its deep divisions and acrimony reflects the far reaching legacy of slavery. Even the things we talk about daily in this forum, the growth and decline of cities, poverty, crime all bear the mark of slavery. Some want to put history in a box, bury it or pretend that there is a clean dividing line between the past (when "we could only tolerate so many blacks") and the present (when we suddenly became tolerant?). What people like jtown fail to realize about history is - we are living in it.
I don't fail to realize that, at all. I don't know where I gave that impression? Maybe it was because I kept letting you know that your modern viewpoints and emotions shouldn't blind you to actual history? You seem hyper-focused on slavery in the Americas(well, actually just in the US) because that is what you have learned and also because as you said, we are living with the leftover impacts of that slavery. I really can't express how much I disagree with your statement, it's actually been something I've wondered about African slaves in SA or in Iraq, how are their descendants doing today? Maybe since I can only read English sources, I haven't found much information about that topic. Maybe its more hushed in those countries(SA ending slavery just in the 1960s) or maybe since Africans could better "blend" into the Arab society than in European society(based on looks alone) the issue is less important? I don't know.
     
     
  #220  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
I don't fail to realize that, at all. I don't know where I gave that impression?
Whatever you say Mr. "We could only tolerate so many blacks" jtown.

It's all safely buried deep in history.
     
     
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