What do people in hamilton prefer?

[adam]

Over 300,000 people live in lower Hamilton. The remaining 200,000 live in vast amounts of land on the mountain, near Burlington, etc, etc, etc,. That takes us up to 500,000. If we take it a step further so we can get 700,000... this will add HUGE amounts of land with low density suburban sprawl.

These regions you'd like to add come with a huge per capita cost for the city in roads, sewers, etc, etc What do these areas have to offer the city? The downtown has lead pipes in many areas, and yet these new suburban areas that want to get the label "Megacity" demand all the newest infrastructure and if there is a single pothole in the road they cry bloody murder. How is this fair to the city? Every km. of infrastructure that is laid down in these suburban areas comes at a cost per tax payer that is much higher than the cost for those living the higher density lower Hamilton area.

What do these other regions have to offer us? I'm having problems thinking of anything, so please help me out here.

[flar]

Originally Posted by adam

What do these other regions have to offer us? I'm having problems thinking of anything, so please help me out here.

Halton region's much healthier commercial and industrial sectors would be a huge boon to the tax base. They also took our upper middle class, Hamilton is left with a disproportionate number of low income people and people on welfare and disabiltiy and others requiringe social services. This is a major strain on the old budget.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by flar

Halton region's much healthier commercial and industrial sectors would be a huge boon to the tax base. They also took our upper middle class, Hamilton is left with a disproportionate number of low income people and people on welfare and disabiltiy and others requiringe social services. This is a major strain on the old budget.

I think Flar has hit it on the head here. Sure Burlington is a lot less dense and there are costs associated with that, but they have far fewer on social assistance or people sucking up money through DARTS and other such services. That's why I'd like Hamilton to have a moratorium on new social housing. Hamilton has done its share for the lower income population of the province.

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by flar

Hamilton needs to take more ownership of Burlington. Hamilton proper has shed jobs like crazy but basically survives because of the employment corridor along the QEW through Halton Region. A sad and unfair situation for Hamilton vis a vis Burlington from a taxation perspective.

I know people from Burlington, and they claim Toronto more now.

[SteelTown]

I would rather go after Aldershot than Burlington. Aldershot is closely linked with Hamilton, La Salle Park is in Aldershot even though the City of Hamilton finance and looks over the park.

With Aldershot there's tons of empty land around the 403 for business parks and it's right next to the Aldershot Station (VIA/GO). Hamilton's VIA coverage is at Aldershot but not for long thankfully.

[adam]

I agree. There are some multi-storey condos going in along Plains Rd too

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by flar

Hamilton needs to take more ownership of Burlington. Hamilton proper has shed jobs like crazy but basically survives because of the employment corridor along the QEW through Halton Region. A sad and unfair situation for Hamilton vis a vis Burlington from a taxation perspective.

True, and also sad and unfair for those who have to work there. All of the production staff at my workplace commute from Hamilton. The higher earning professional staff come from Oakville and Mississauga. Those coming from Hamilton are faced with more traffic, longer commutes and higher travel expenses, and left with less time and money to spend in Hamilton. I hope more companies start to consider where their workforce is coming from.

[highwater]

We need more of those higher earning professional staff living in Hamilton before much changes.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

I would rather go after Aldershot than Burlington.

Thing is, Aldershot is not its own township. It's a community within the city of Burlington, and therefore part of the GTA. I don't see citizens of Burlington realligning themselves to be considered part of GHA. Despite the geographic proximity, the historical rivalry with Hamilton and the socio-economic links to the GTA lends to Burlington alligning itself closer to Toronto than to Hamilton.

[flar]

I think a lot of people in Burlington like to associate themselves with Toronto, but at the same time, there are a lot of cultural links to Hamilton there. A lot of Burlington residents are former Hamiltonians. There are also a lot of businesses that locate in Burlington to serve the Hamilton area. It really isn't Toronto, Burlington happens to be the place with the best, most serviceable land and most favourable tax policy in the Hamilton area (along the QEW). That's why I always took the unpopular position of partial support of the aerotropolis. Hamilton has lost out to Burlington time and time again because Burlington had a bunch of nice serviced ready to build land along the QEW while Hamilton had nothing (and has nothing). Note that brownfields don't count, as much as I'd like to see brownfields developed, that's not going to be the reality as long as every other city in the region has nice flat cheap serviced land along highways available.

[flar]

By coincidence, I just read something funny on this subject on another forum :

I would support separating the more urban parts of Peel and Halton from the rural north and integrating them into one RM, while merging the rural parts either into their own RM/couty or into the surrounding counties. At the same time, I would want to see the former Nassagaweya Township in Milton gain independence and included in the rural area. I would support the same thing for York and Durham Regions. The Regional Municipality of South Peel-Halton or something along those lines, perhaps with an amalgamated transit agency. It's too bad the RM of Hamilton-Wentworth doesn't exist anymore, or I'd propose merging Burlington into it.

I also think it's time for Oakville to recognize that when you're starting to reach 200,000 people, you are no longer a town, but a city.

We can have 'em because Toronto doesn't even want them

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Thing is, Aldershot is not its own township. It's a community within the city of Burlington, and therefore part of the GTA. I don't see citizens of Burlington realligning themselves to be considered part of GHA. Despite the geographic proximity, the historical rivalry with Hamilton and the socio-economic links to the GTA lends to Burlington alligning itself closer to Toronto than to Hamilton.

True, but to look at a map, they should be with us. Flamborough/Waterdown/Carlisle are part of Hamilton, and that borderline tracks up Hwy 6 and along the escarpment to Kerns Rd/Milburough Line, then out to the Mountsberg Reservoir. Everything west of Milburough Line along that stretch is Hamilton; to the east it's Burlington. Extend that line to the water and you'll pretty much line up with the Skyway. Put another way, Waterdown is at one end of Waterdown Road, and Aldershot is at the other. Burlington is reaching buildout shortly and will have to basically double its intensification rates (see the Aldershot builds near the old Zellers that adam was mentioning).

I don't speak budgetese, but could Burlington's fabled tax idyll have anything to do with the fact that they've exported the unwashed and unwanted so that they barely have to fund social services? Or they are able to pay a visit to our hospitals when they can't summon the courage to check in at Joe Brant or be bothered to drive to Oakville Trafalgar?

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

True, but to look at a map, they should be with us. Flamborough/Waterdown/Carlisle are part of Hamilton, and that borderline tracks up Hwy 6 and along the escarpment to Kerns Rd/Milburough Line, then out to the Mountsberg Reservoir. Everything west of Milburough Line along that stretch is Hamilton; to the east it's Burlington. Extend that line to the water and you'll pretty much line up with the Skyway. Put another way, Waterdown is at one end of Waterdown Road, and Aldershot is at the other. Burlington is reaching buildout shortly and will have to basically double its intensification rates (see the Aldershot builds near the old Zellers that adam was mentioning).

I don't speak budgetese, but could Burlington's fabled tax idyll have anything to do with the fact that they've exported the unwashed and unwanted so that they barely have to fund social services? Or they are able to pay a visit to our hospitals when they can't summon the courage to check in at Joe Brant or be bothered to drive to Oakville Trafalgar?

I was thinking the Burlington had little in the way of Burden, which is why they have so much.

[bigguy1231]

First of all Burlington is part of the Hamilton CMA and always has been in the eyes of the federal government. So is Grimsby.

As for Aldershot, it once many years ago was essentially part of the city of Hamilton. It became part of Burlington when regionalization came into being in the early seventies. The people in Aldershot were given a choice. They chose Burlington and Halton region. Thats why we have places like Lasalle park and Woodland cemetary that are owned by the city of Hamilton located there.

Burlington should have become a part of the Hamilton region when regionalization came into effect since most people there at the time had close ties to Hamilton. But because of the objections of their MPP at the time they became a part of Halton. At that time you have to realize that the population of Burlington was only about 15 thousand and looked nothing like it does now. The land along the QEW where all those factories are located was all farmland. That farmland for the most part has been filled with factories and businesses that were once located in Hamilton. Burlington is a product of Hamilton and as such should be linked to Hamilton.

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

First of all Burlington is part of the Hamilton CMA and always has been in the eyes of the federal government. So is Grimsby.

As for Aldershot, it once many years ago was essentially part of the city of Hamilton. It became part of Burlington when regionalization came into being in the early seventies. The people in Aldershot were given a choice. They chose Burlington and Halton region. Thats why we have places like Lasalle park and Woodland cemetary that are owned by the city of Hamilton located there.

Burlington should have become a part of the Hamilton region when regionalization came into effect since most people there at the time had close ties to Hamilton. But because of the objections of their MPP at the time they became a part of Halton. At that time you have to realize that the population of Burlington was only about 15 thousand and looked nothing like it does now. The land along the QEW where all those factories are located was all farmland. That farmland for the most part has been filled with factories and businesses that were once located in Hamilton. Burlington is a product of Hamilton and as such should be linked to Hamilton.

But they chose otherwise. Beside this is not about them, it about you guys what you prefer. Your own or Toronto?

[dennis1]

can someone add a poll?

[bigguy1231]

Quite simple, I would prefer that Hamilton stay on it's own. I want nothing to do with Toronto. It's better to be a big fish in a little pond than a little fish in a big pond. The city of Hamilton has been neglected by the province for 40 years, we don't need to be neglected by another level of government.

[adam]

Actually the city's own municipal government has ignored its downtown for 40 years. At least Toronto "gets" downtowns We are starting to come around however, but its so painfully slow. Case in point: when Toronto wanted to build a new modern city hall, they didn't tear down the old one. They kept it and it was used for another purpose. Its now a beautiful landmark building and adds a great deal to that part of the city. I'd like to add that BOTH the old and new city halls in Toronto are in good shape and are well looked after.

I'll take a government that takes care of its assets any day over what we currently have.

[highwater]

The city of Toronto wanted to tear down the old city hall. It was a very loud, concerted opposition from citizens that stopped it. Ditto Union Station. If there's a difference between Toronto and Hamilton, it's in the mentality of its citizens, not its government.

[c@taract_soulj@h]

Suburbs of Toronto don't have professional sports franchises or vie for new ones
They are no more than "quaint" bedroom communities being the poster child of urban sprawl that sucessfully inject money into the GTA.

Hamilton is it's own area and has defined itself as one for decades. Like other forumers have said, we want nothing to do with Toronto. We'd like to have the same amenities as T.O however, the big smoke is more like our in-law or half-brother to sorta speak whom we like to feud with every now and than. In the long run though Toronto can kiss our gritty ass and continue to spend 3 bucks on a double double =D

I could see Hamilton with it's own suburbs rather than us being one ourselves.

Case in Point

I could very well see Brantford, Caledonia as part of the GHA too...shit...thats a good extra 100,000 people nearly!