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  #4001  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:23 PM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And it's equally true of any other group. My black friend with 25 years spent in Quebec and who says he has never experienced racism lives in a city where some black people (I am sure) say the everyday level of racism is intolerable.

Who is right? Who is telling the truth?
IMO, it's pretty clear that it's much easier to imagine racism where there's none (assholes in a passing car threw a bottle at lio45 who was walking on the side of the road - well that must be because lio45 is black) than it is to be on the receiving end of actual racism and be oblivious to it.

So, I'd value the word of the Quebec blacks I know, over the alleged experience of random others, just because common sense says the bias would likely be massively in one direction there.

Do you think it's likely that your healthcare professional gay friend got beaten up by a homophobic mob and failed to remember it, got evicted by homophobic landlords and failed to remember it, got fired or not hired by homophobic bosses and failed to remember it?

By contrast, it's easy for someone to get evicted (for any valid reason) and then decide it must have been because they were gay.

Let's realize that in life, not everything always goes your way. You'll be denied things. You'll apply for stuff and not get it. If you have already decided in advance that any time anything doesn't go your way, it's because you're black and society is racist, that's an impossible bar to meet. In a perfectly non-racist society, blacks will still be refused apartments from time to time, and still sometimes won't get hired for jobs (sometimes it's the white person that will get hired instead).
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  #4002  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:36 PM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Originally Posted by Pavlov View Post
Repealing the Indian Act is no simple task. What would replace it?

And of course your argument that a first nations person living is a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian would (a) I think be rejected by the vast majority of first nations persons; and (b) totally ignore the unique status of first nations in Canada (enshrined in bilateral treaties with the Crown and in our Constitution).
Well, that's kinda like saying most black South Africans in the 1980s would say "no no, we're not culturally like Afrikaans and Boers, and we don't want to be lumped or merged with them, we DEMAND that apartheid must continue!"

"Okay, I guess...?" What else are you supposed to answer to that?

In fact, we have a semi-similar example going on in the USA these days. Some Black Americans insist they aren't just Americans, they're Blacks, they have their own identity and culture that they want to preserve, therefore they want to go to black schools, be treated at black hospitals, drink from separate black drinking fountains, patronize only black businesses, live in black neighborhoods.

Again: okay....... but that's the recipe for a racist, segregated society. If that's really what the people want, I guess I'm just screaming for the wind to stop? I still think it's a bad idea, I prefer a non-racist society where everyone has equal status and ideally even cultural identity (melting pot).
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  #4003  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:52 PM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Originally Posted by Pavlov View Post
What would replace it?
Social measures that are similar to what we already have in place. (We pretty much already have the framework in place to just eliminate it.)

Instead of receiving $x a month just because you are of Indigenous ethnicity and ancestry, you'd now be receiving $x a month because you're a Canadian who happens to currently live in a remote area and have no job.

Same result/outcome, but psychologically it would definitely help us become a least racist society.
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  #4004  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Well, that's kinda like saying most black South Africans in the 1980s would say "no no, we're not culturally like Afrikaans and Boers, and we don't want to be lumped or merged with them, we DEMAND that apartheid must continue!"

"Okay, I guess...?" What else are you supposed to answer to that?

In fact, we have a semi-similar example going on in the USA these days. Some Black Americans insist they aren't just Americans, they're Blacks, they have their own identity and culture that they want to preserve, therefore they want to go to black schools, be treated at black hospitals, drink from separate black drinking fountains, patronize only black businesses, live in black neighborhoods.

Again: okay....... but that's the recipe for a racist, segregated society. If that's really what the people want, I guess I'm just screaming for the wind to stop? I still think it's a bad idea, I prefer a non-racist society where everyone has equal status and ideally even cultural identity (melting pot).
A couple of thoughts.

First, the history of first nations' relationship to the Canadian Crown is just not analogous to the history of slavery and black people in America.

Second, "equality" is an incredibly complex idea.
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  #4005  
Old Posted Yesterday, 6:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
IMO, it's pretty clear that it's much easier to imagine racism where there's none (assholes in a passing car threw a bottle at lio45 who was walking on the side of the road - well that must be because lio45 is black) than it is to be on the receiving end of actual racism and be oblivious to it.

So, I'd value the word of the Quebec blacks I know, over the alleged experience of random others, just because common sense says the bias would likely be massively in one direction there.


.
I've mentioned my African "never known racism" friend a few times because he's the black person I am closest to, and also because his views are so categorical.

This does not mean he is a sell-out to the black community BTW. We were carpooling when a self-help radio host called Doc Mailloux said that science had proven that black people were less intelligent than other races, during an appearance on Tout le monde en parle a few years ago, and my friend was pissed and ranted about it. And he would not dispute that racism exists here - it's just that it has never affected him personally.

In the discussions I have had with other African or Haitian origin people I have in my entourage, racism has occasionally been alluded to, but most seem to consider that while it's present, overall it is fairly minimal. No one would be in the "very, very angry" camp that dreambrother referred to on the previous page. Or if they are, they sure do a helluva good job hiding it well.

Ironically, some of the visible minority people I know here in Gatineau (Black, Arab or Asian) have complained of being discriminated against in Ottawa... because they're Québécois! (I assume they're conflating Québécois with "francophone" in this case.)
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  #4006  
Old Posted Yesterday, 6:54 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I've mentioned my African "never known racism" friend a few times because he's the black person I am closest to, and also because his views are so categorical.

This does not mean he is a sell-out to the black community BTW. We were carpooling when a self-help radio host called Doc Mailloux said that science had proven that black people were less intelligent than other races, during an appearance on Tout le monde en parle a few years ago, and my friend was pissed and ranted about it. And he would not dispute that racism exists here - it's just that it has never affected him personally.

In the discussions I have had with other African or Haitian origin people I have in my entourage, racism has occasionally been alluded to, but most seem to consider that while it's present, overall it is fairly minimal. No one would be in the "very, very angry" camp that dreambrother referred to on the previous page. Or if they are, they sure do a helluva good job hiding it well.

Ironically, some of the visible minority people I know here in Gatineau (Black, Arab or Asian) have complained of being discriminated against in Ottawa... because they're Québécois! (I assume they're conflating Québécois with "francophone" in this case.)
For the last part it's so true. Anglophones change their attitudes completely when I saw I'm from NB and not QC.
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  #4007  
Old Posted Yesterday, 9:46 PM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Originally Posted by p_xavier View Post
For the last part it's so true. Anglophones change their attitudes completely when I saw I'm from NB and not QC.
You're so privileged to be able to do that! Some of us don't have the option to claim (honestly, and in a bulletproof way that's guaranteed to withstand any questioning or challenging) that we're in fact from a non-QC province.

"Most of you on this board can never understand what it is that I've been dealing with. Poor me!" (Not even Acajack - he's from NS!)
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  #4008  
Old Posted Yesterday, 9:52 PM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Originally Posted by Pavlov View Post
A couple of thoughts.

First, the history of first nations' relationship to the Canadian Crown is just not analogous to the history of slavery and black people in America.

Second, "equality" is an incredibly complex idea.
Sure, but just because it's "complex" shouldn't be reason enough to not try to at least do something about it. Often this "complexity" gets used as an excuse to keep the status quo. ("Sorry blacks, the institution of slavery is actually enshrined in this older legal document that is currently still in force; nothing we can do about it.")

Kinda reminds me of another occasionally-seen Canadian argument on this forum actually: climate change is "complex" and nothing we can do will 100% immediately solve everything, so we might as well continue to extract and burn tarsands oil like there's no tomorrow.
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  #4009  
Old Posted Yesterday, 10:03 PM
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Has anyone been to Lucan? It used to be known as Wilberforce - I do like the other Wilberforce.
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  #4010  
Old Posted Today, 1:39 AM
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Originally Posted by dleung View Post
Well clearly any white guy who's like "where's my privilege?" is probably precisely the kind of person LBJ is talking about, who needs the status quo so much that he spent 700 posts on the same thread trying to poo-poo any talk of leveling the playing field.

Vid, you saw this thread for what it is 15 pages ago - why are you still here lol
Same reason I look out the window when a firetruck drives by. It's hard to look away from a disaster. It is insane how much energy some people put into countering the lived experiences of other people to preserve the status quo. Makes you go hmmmm. And I won't single out who is doing it, but stop posting anecdotes and then presenting the two sides as if they're the only options or the only kinds of realities people face. Truth doesn't work that way. This reminds me of back in the mid-2000s when homophobes told me all about who and what I was and none of it was true.

I don't have time to read and respond to everything, I only logged in because I was mentioned.
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  #4011  
Old Posted Today, 2:52 AM
savevp savevp is online now
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Problem is it's not just about countering lived experiences. Even though that happens on both 'sides' especially when the nature of white privilege is debated. I'm sure most if not all posters would agree that reallocating police resources to better deal with certain situations is a favourable outcome. Unfortunately, the whole societal debate is wrapped up in layers of iconoclasm, language policing, rapidly changing mores, and a barrage of accusations.

This thread clearly hasn't only been about lived experiences, real or perceived. Much of the debate has also been valid, timely, and reasonable surrounding whether statues should be removed, streets renamed, public figures censored, etc.

Vid has contributed to the discussion in good faith and in a fulsome manner. Certain other posters come here to repeatedly trash the thread and ask like-minded others why they bother commenting... and to insinuate that this thread is below them. To counter points you disagree with, no matter how viscerally, you're better off engaging with them critically, rather than logging in every couple pages to slag off the thread and contribute little to nothing to the debate. This current movement has the potential to change society in substantial ways, and not all are indisputably positive. If spaces like this forum cease to exist as valid places to debate that, the alternative tends to be Charlottesville.

Last edited by savevp; Today at 3:04 AM.
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