CHICAGO | General Developments

[Near North Resident]

I always laugh about how people say america is a 'free market economy' I tell them, oh yea? Go try and sell something on the street and see how well that goes

[msu2001la]

Originally Posted by mattshoe

'Ambitious' 275-Unit Wicker Park Project to Connect Division and Milwaukee.

This seems like it would be a great addition to the neighborhood, and get rid of a huge vacant piece of land right in the middle Milwaukee and Division.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20150...-public-spaces

I like the curved I-beam with laser cut text.
Those hammock designs should be popular with the guys who hang out in the plaza near the blue line stop.

[ardecila]

I love the concept of "Wicker Park Connection" but the branding is atrocious. It's a really interesting, unusual piece of urban design for Chicago. Obviously it has the usual security concerns with a blind corner and being far from auto traffic, but if they can activate it successfully 24/7 then it shouldn't attract criminals.

It should really be called a lane, alley, mews, market, or arcade... "Wicker Park Connection" sounds like the name of a wannabe urban boutique in Downtown Naperville. The existing little stub plaza on Milwaukee is called Mautene Court, but I can understand why that's not the catchiest name for marketing purposes.

PKDickman, can you lean on these guys for a better name?

[Mr Downtown]

Has any off-street mall been successful since Pipers Alley circa 1970? I understand why the property owner would dream of being able to market mid-block space having no Division or Milwaukee frontage as if it did, but what's missing is for the "connection" to actually be a vital connection. The reason the Galleria Vittorio Emanuele II works is that it's on a path pedestrians already wanted to take. Many an off-street gallery has failed because they didn't understand that crucial factor.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

More recently, there are promising experiments with rooftop parking, but it's interesting that the supermarket operators still feel it's vital to their business to have a few ground-level spaces for folks who think they're "just running in for a couple of things." Witness Jewel at Broadway & Addison, or Mariano's at Clark & 16th.

The Mariano's at Ashland/Webster has the surface lot and rooftop parking. The rooftop parking is never full, but Mariano's decided to take over an adjacent outlot to expand their surface parking, because nobody wants to drive up the ramp.

[wierdaaron]

I've noticed the same thing about the South Loop Mariano's. They have a tiny amount of surface parking and a humungous garage with free parking, and people seem to fight like crazy to get one of the 20-30 lot spaces rather than use the garage.

[rlw777]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

Again, most of you guys aren't from Chicago. You've almost all seemingly moved here with this romanticized idea of what Chicago is, but it just isn't that way. This isn't Europe or New York City. The norm here is driving to Jewel (or Whole Foods nowadays if you're wealthy) and doing grocery shopping in the typical American fashion.

First of all this idea of you being "originally from Chicago" and thus somehow more valid or rational is disgusting and has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Stop being an Fing dinosaur! Secondly it's worth mentioning that the norm changes. surprise! who knew?

[aaron38]

Originally Posted by ardecila

It's a really interesting, unusual piece of urban design for Chicago. Obviously it has the usual security concerns with a blind corner and being far from auto traffic, but if they can activate it successfully 24/7 then it shouldn't attract criminals.

People are supposed to walk home with the groceries, but a block down the alley to get dinner is too far from the street? And isn't any 90 degree corner "blind"? It looks pretty wide and open from the blueprint. Which corner did you mean, specifically?

As for activating it, there's this quote from the DNA article:

While the site would offer 156 parking spots, the vast majority — 145 spaces — would be underground, with pedestrian exits in the center, forcing drivers to be on the complex's grounds as they leave the subterranean space, "activating more foot traffic," said John McLinden, a principal with Centrum Partners.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by wierdaaron

I've noticed the same thing about the South Loop Mariano's. They have a tiny amount of surface parking and a humungous garage with free parking, and people seem to fight like crazy to get one of the 20-30 lot spaces rather than use the garage.

This happens at the Whole Foods in Lincoln Park also. Their top parking deck is empty except for the busiest days while people fight it out in the little (pointless) surface lot or wait in lines to get a closer spot to the escalators on the first parking level.

[wierdaaron]

I think people just prefer not to use garages because of the mental cost of navigating a vehicle up tight ramps and around blind corners in the dark with cars everywhere. It's an interesting bit of social science.

[marothisu]

Is finding the spot in these surface lots more efficient/time consuming than the extra 1-2 minutes it takes to drive up a ramp?

Is the distance in the surface lot less (walking wise) than one would have to do with the ramp?

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by rlw777

First of all this idea of you being "originally from Chicago" and thus somehow more valid or rational is disgusting and has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Stop being an Fing dinosaur! Secondly it's worth mentioning that the norm changes. surprise! who knew?

I find this attitude a lot among Chicagoans, and it's also the strongest 'townie superiority complex/mild xenophobia' that I've ever encountered anywhere in the U.S. Perhaps it's a function of less education, geographic location, generational pride, hard-wired yokel intransigence or a magic mix of all of the preceding ingredients..who knows?

Maybe Chicago is just the city with the most whiners?

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by sentinel

I find this attitude a lot among Chicagoans, and it's also the strongest 'townie superiority complex/mild xenophobia' that I've ever encountered anywhere in the U.S. Perhaps it's a function of less education, geographic location, generational pride, hard-wired yokel intransigence or a magic mix of all of the preceding ingredients..who knows?

I agree. It's actually pretty annoying. Love the city but that's one thing I could do without. "Oh, you've been here 10 years but you didn't grow up here? Well your opinion is BS then."

Maybe Chicago is just the city with the most whiners?

There are a lot of whiners in Chicago...

[Jibba]

Originally Posted by aaron38

People are supposed to walk home with the groceries, but a block down the alley to get dinner is too far from the street? And isn't any 90 degree corner "blind"? It looks pretty wide and open from the blueprint. Which corner did you mean, specifically?

As for activating it, there's this quote from the DNA article:

A trip to the grocery store is a predetermined, deliberate affair. Retail that relies in part on incidental walk-bys needs to have visibility.

[Jibba]

Originally Posted by wierdaaron

I think people just prefer not to use garages because of the mental cost of navigating a vehicle up tight ramps and around blind corners in the dark with cars everywhere. It's an interesting bit of social science.

Completely agree. It's one more degree of friction between them and the destination.

[Jibba]

Originally Posted by aaron38

That's more an argument against big box stores.

Which nearly all (or all) new grocery stores built are.

Originally Posted by aaron38

But are people really willing to drive longer if they don't have to? Just because I've hopped in my car doesn't make me more willing to drive 20 minutes to Costco vs. 3 minutes to Jewel.

True, but even just 3 minutes in a car still amounts to 3/4 of a mile (with an average speed of 15 mph), which is much longer than most are willing to walk. And someone driving expends nearly zero energy. Of course someone driving will still drive to the closest store, but 1 mile-plus distances aren't deal breakers. The minimum distances that car-focused stores are able to locate from one another are often greater than the walk-shed radius of pedestrians.

[Tom Servo]

Originally Posted by Ch.G, Ch.G

I also have a real problem with "this isn't New York or Europe." Most of us aspire for the City to be more like those places. Not in every way, of course, but in fundamental ways: better transit infrastructure, more walkable, less car-dependent. The status quo and anything that reinforces it is therefore unacceptable. Progress-- even incremental change, baby steps-- is the goal. Does the surface lot need to be so large? What about roof parking? Sure, in this particular case such recommendations must be weighed against the benefit of economic development in an area that really needs it, though only if you assume the stakes are all-or-nothing. But your argument doesn't even have that kind of nuance. Your argument was that all Chicagoans-- the Chicagoans that matter, anyway-- use cars to get their groceries. As your fellow forumers have shown, it's an assertion that's demonstrably false.

These things are important; I agree. But I'm not so sure this city needs much improvement or so-called progress. We're already a highly walkable city with adequate transit. And life without a car is very easy here. I didn't buy a car until 2011, when I was 25. My late teen years and early 20s were spent on the CTA or on foot or on my bike. Don't misunderstand me when I say "this isn't Europe"... I'm only saying, why desire a city that isn't what we already have. And to that extent, I'm only saying, why oppose parking lots when we already function just fine with them, many of them. Idk, I think this really is simply a case of cars=bad because cars are heavily associated with the suburbs. And anything associated with the suburbs on this forum is hastily cast aside and dismissed.

[Tom Servo]

On the topic of parking lots and garages, I think Jewel and the other big box stores should take a lesson from Target. They have become masters at incorporating a large amount of parking into their buildings and just generally integrating the big box store (which is inherently opposed to the fine-grain, pre-war urban fabric that we all love so much) into the city very well. Wilson Yard is probably the best store that illustrates their adaptation of the big box store.

[the urban politician]

^ I think the issue is more that, for the past 50 years the city did enough suburbanizing as underutilized land often got converted to strip centers or power centers, which kind of eroded the existing walkable urban fabric of the city.

Now we are at (or likely past) a crossroads where we are seeing a lot of forward momentum towards the opposing direction (more density, more walkability, filling in of streetscapes that formerly held underutilized lots and parking), and people don't want to see us lose such momentum by making the city revert to being too car-oriented.

I think the best solution is to focus on walkability in the core, and increasingly allow more car-oriented development as you move outward. That kind of seems to be happening already. But I would like to see an outright ban on new strip malls within a certain radius of downtown or within a certain radius of L stops.

[Swicago Swi Sox]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

On the topic of parking lots and garages, I think Jewel and the other big box stores should take a lesson from Target. They have become masters at incorporating a large amount of parking into their buildings and just generally integrating the big box store (which is inherently opposed to the fine-grain, pre-war urban fabric that we all love so much) into the city very well. Wilson Yard is probably the best store that illustrates their adaptation of the big box store.

This is definetly true, and it will be interesting to see how the new smaller Target in the old Fox and Obel space will turn out in Streeterville.

That said, I do not like the way the Target on Division turned out. The redevelopment in that area is going to make that neighborhood very walkable very soon. This Target put a huge parking area on the first floor of almost the entire footprint of the building, with only the glassy entrace at Larabee acting as street entrance to the second floor store. This created a very long stretch of Divion that is fronted by a blank facade of brick, fake windows, and louvers. It would have been better for the urban environment if they had put something on division other than the entrance. Maybe they could have placed their concessions area and a starbuck or something on division to create the apperance of a real storefront and draw in neighbors that way.