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  #261  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 2:35 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Urban_Sky View Post
This is an interesting angle which actually resonates with demands other people have made in this forum and whereas I do believe that there should be national coach network which is organized and subsidized by the federal and provincial governments, the comparison of Germany (my country of birth and citizenship) with the United Kingdom (where I pursued my Bachelor degree) and Canada makes me believe that there should be strict separation between the operation (that is: the crewing and maintenance of trains and staffing of stations) and the organisation (that is: the funding, timetabling and ticketing) of publicly funded services. I used to work for a transit network authority in Germany and I can tell you that there is much more accountability of an operator towards the transit network authority than an individual passenger – not at last because the authority commands an infinitely higher share of the operator’s revenues and has the ability to withhold parts of it. As for the last two cities you are mentioning,
I'm interested in this, could you expand? This sounds somewhat similar to the UK model with companies running the operations, but the government deciding most of the overall strategy.

I think I agree with you that there should be a national ticketing system, but that any buses etc would not necessarily have to be run by VIA, and indeed it may be best to have them separate. As long as someone can buy one ticket with the different legs clearly described with how long they will take (and the guarantee that if the train is late they won't get financially penalized for a late connection), that would be a huge improvement.
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  #262  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I don't see the upgrades needed for HFR service for Calgary/Red Deer/Edmonton costing any more than the Montreal/Trois-Rivières/Quebec City HFR service. The distances are similar as are the track upgrades. It is true that Montreal is a significantly larger city, but Calgary and Edmonton are significantly larger than Quebec City and Red Deer is about 2/3 the size of Trois-Rivières.

I am not saying that an Alberta HFR service should take priority over the proposed Quebec service, but it is worth a second look.
The investment might be the same, or less even, but the benefit will be far less, so the business case will be weak.

That's not to say I don't think an extensive passenger rail network in Alberta could be viable, but it would take many years to develop given we are starting at virtually nothing. If anyone is going to build passenger rail in Alberta, I would hope they look at the whole province and find a line with the very best business case and build that first. If it's a success, we can build more, but if it's a failure then we never will, so it is critical that the business case is good.
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  #263  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
It is less an issue of frequency and more an issue of reliability. The Canadian frequently runs 6 - 12 hours late and can be as much as 24 hours late. That is the problem with having one, long route instead of having several shorter routes. Delays early on get propagated down the line with little opportunity to catch up.
Most people riding through on The Canadian don't care if the train is late, it's basically a land cruise for fun as opposed to a transportation system that people rely on.

The handful of people who still ride it as a local train (e.g. Melville-Saskatoon) are used to this shortcoming and are generally well prepared when it comes to checking to see if the train is on time.

You chop up The Canadian into a bunch of small segments and you lose nearly all the big spending tourists, and gain a small handful of people who start buying cheap tickets to ride from Wainwright to Edmonton. Doesn't add up.
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  #264  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:00 PM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
Something I’d like to see more of us co-locating the railway and bus stations in major cities. For example in Toronto the Coach Terminal is located some distance north of Union Station. And I believe Ottawa’s bus terminal is some distance west of the VIA station. It would make connecting between two modes of transportation far more convenient.

Not sure about Ottawa, but Toronto is consolidating their intercity (Greyhound, Megabus etc.) and GO bus terminals into the CIBC Square development across the street from Union Station.
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  #265  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Treplow View Post
Not sure about Ottawa, but Toronto is consolidating their intercity (Greyhound, Megabus etc.) and GO bus terminals into the CIBC Square development across the street from Union Station.
The are no such plans AFAIK to move the Ottawa bus/coach terminal closer to the train station.
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  #266  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The are no such plans AFAIK to move the Ottawa bus/coach terminal closer to the train station.
There "was" a decade ago. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/arch.../t-179744.html
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  #267  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
Goode finde. I had forgotten about that.

I am sure that if this was resurrected there would be more than a few people who'd say there is absolutely no room around the VIA/O-Train station at Tremblay Rd. for a Greyhound terminal.

As an aside, it always makes me laugh when people say there's "no room" for things in Ottawa - even downtown Ottawa. I mean, they find room to implant new, large-scale stuff in midtown Manhattan or central London or Paris all the time.

The idea that central Ottawa is so densely and permanently developed that everything new has to go to the periphery, is hilarious.
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  #268  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:27 PM
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Goode finde.
Reverting to Middle English??
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  #269  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:32 PM
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Reverting to Middle English??
Don't get all excited now!
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  #270  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Treplow View Post
Not sure about Ottawa, but Toronto is consolidating their intercity (Greyhound, Megabus etc.) and GO bus terminals into the CIBC Square development across the street from Union Station.
Are you sure about that? The last I heard the new terminal was just going to be for GO and the existing terminal on Edward wasn't going to be affected.
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  #271  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Most people riding through on The Canadian don't care if the train is late, it's basically a land cruise for fun as opposed to a transportation system that people rely on.

The handful of people who still ride it as a local train (e.g. Melville-Saskatoon) are used to this shortcoming and are generally well prepared when it comes to checking to see if the train is on time.

You chop up The Canadian into a bunch of small segments and you lose nearly all the big spending tourists, and gain a small handful of people who start buying cheap tickets to ride from Wainwright to Edmonton. Doesn't add up.
The solution is to maintain the Canadian as the Tourist-focused "Land Cruise" through western Canada, while setting up more regular sublines to connect the Prairie cities.

The Canadian would benefit from the improved reliability of the daughter routes with such a plan, and we would finally start seeing a bit of a train passenger network linking the Prairie and BC populations.
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  #272  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Are you sure about that? The last I heard the new terminal was just going to be for GO and the existing terminal on Edward wasn't going to be affected.
That's what I heard as well. I don't see this being more than a GO bus terminal.
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  #273  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Taeolas View Post
The solution is to maintain the Canadian as the Tourist-focused "Land Cruise" through western Canada, while setting up more regular sublines to connect the Prairie cities.

The Canadian would benefit from the improved reliability of the daughter routes with such a plan, and we would finally start seeing a bit of a train passenger network linking the Prairie and BC populations.
The pricy land cruise subsidizes the regional transportation, as limited as it might be in its usefulness. If you add a series of local trains with a bunch of short distance travellers on cheap tickets, it would start getting expensive as you require equipment and staff to run those trains.
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  #274  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 7:57 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
The pricy land cruise subsidizes the regional transportation, as limited as it might be in its usefulness. If you add a series of local trains with a bunch of short distance travellers on cheap tickets, it would start getting expensive as you require equipment and staff to run those trains.
It's always going to be "too expensive" to do anything, but we have to start somewhere. It's almost criminal that there isn't a passenger rail connection between the 4th and 5th biggest cities in the country, despite them only being a few hundred km's apart. And because both cities are still growing, it's always going to be more expensive to secure the rail routes later than it is now.

Now I'm not saying to spend money just to spend money. But ultimately Via's leadership needs to figure out how to figure out the Passenger rail issue in Canada, especially beyond the Windsor-QC corridor, and to start properly planning and budgeting a way to improve it and grow it to reflect both the current and future realities.
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  #275  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Taeolas View Post
It's always going to be "too expensive" to do anything, but we have to start somewhere. It's almost criminal that there isn't a passenger rail connection between the 4th and 5th biggest cities in the country, despite them only being a few hundred km's apart. And because both cities are still growing, it's always going to be more expensive to secure the rail routes later than it is now.

Now I'm not saying to spend money just to spend money. But ultimately Via's leadership needs to figure out how to figure out the Passenger rail issue in Canada, especially beyond the Windsor-QC corridor, and to start properly planning and budgeting a way to improve it and grow it to reflect both the current and future realities.
I don't disagree with the general idea behind what you're saying, but I think a route like Calgary-Edmonton is the place to start as opposed to running a day train between Saskatoon and Winnipeg. If meaningful intercity rail is going to happen anywhere in Western Canada, Calgary-Edmonton is where it will happen. Those cities offer the best chances of success.
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  #276  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2019, 3:54 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
The investment might be the same, or less even, but the benefit will be far less, so the business case will be weak.
I agree it would be weaker, but I don't think it would be weak. Here are the respective CMA or CA populations:
Montreal (Laval, Longueuil) 4,098,927
Quebec City (Lévis) 800,296
Trois-Rivières 156,042

Calgary 1,392,609
Edmonton 1,321,426
Red Deer 100,418
While Montreal is about three times the size of Calgary, Edmonton is more than 1 1/2 times the size of Qutebec City to make up for it. Trois-Rivières and Red Deer are both significantly smaller but will contribute to the demand, especially because of the shorter distances.

The big problem is station infrastructure. Both Montreal and Quebec still have stations that are actively being used. Calgary's no longer has an active station, and Edmonton's is in the north end of the city, and not appropriate for intercity use, so they would have to build a new, south station (possibly use Strathcona Station?). Neither Trois-Rivières nor Red Deer have active train stations, so they are equal.

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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
That's not to say I don't think an extensive passenger rail network in Alberta could be viable, but it would take many years to develop given we are starting at virtually nothing. If anyone is going to build passenger rail in Alberta, I would hope they look at the whole province and find a line with the very best business case and build that first. If it's a success, we can build more, but if it's a failure then we never will, so it is critical that the business case is good.
What other destinations do you think could have sufficient demand for rail service? Lethbridge is only slightly larger than Red Deer and hardly justifiable as a destination. They might be able to run trains to Banff and Lake Louise, but demand would be very seasonal and hard to justify.

Buses would be a better option, and having those integrated with a rail service could create some synergy to drive demand for both.

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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Most people riding through on The Canadian don't care if the train is late, it's basically a land cruise for fun as opposed to a transportation system that people rely on.
Yes and no. It is true that their schedules aren't as tight and if the train is late, they get to enjoy more time on board, but they may have reservations that would need to be adjusted, which can be difficult from the train when it is in remote regions with no cellular service.

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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
The handful of people who still ride it as a local train (e.g. Melville-Saskatoon) are used to this shortcoming and are generally well prepared when it comes to checking to see if the train is on time.
They might be used to it, but I am sure they don't like it and would much prefer a more reliable service. Only those who are totally dependant on the service would put up with these serious shortcomings. Almost everyone else would find an alternate mode of transportation.

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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
You chop up The Canadian into a bunch of small segments and you lose nearly all the big spending tourists, and gain a small handful of people who start buying cheap tickets to ride from Wainwright to Edmonton. Doesn't add up.
If done right you wouldn't loose the tourists. As you said, the tourists aren't in a rush, and most would love to be able to spend more time in cities along the way. The current schedule doesn't allow that. VIA could work with tour operators to allow seamless connections. For example, porters could give the luggage to the tour operator so that it arrives in the passenger's hotel room and is later put back on the train. This would then help stimulate the local economies of the transfer cities, as currently most just stay on the train. Those who do get off, don't venture very far afield and don't have many opportunities to spend money.

Some legs, like Toronto-Winnipeg would likely need to retain overnight service, but others (like Winnipeg-Saskatoon and Saskatoon-Edmonton) could run as daytime trains, which are considerably cheaper to operate. Those operational savings would easily offset the additional cost of hotels for tourists.

One option (westbound) would be:
Day 1&2 - Toronto-Winnipeg,
Overnight in Winnipeg
Day 3 - Winnipeg-Saskatoon
Overnight in Saskatoon
Day 4 Saskatoon-Edmonton
Overnight in Edmonton
Day 5&6 Edmonton-Vancouver*

*Edmonton-Vancouver could also be split, but daylight service is already offered by the Rocky Mountaineer, and they might complain about a VIA competing with them with subsidized service.
The total trip would be two days longer, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. There could also be options for longer stays in the cities by having more frequent daytime service in the prairies.

Last edited by roger1818; Feb 21, 2019 at 5:49 PM. Reason: Corrected error pointed out by Acajack.
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  #277  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2019, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I agree it would be weaker, but I don't think it would be weak. Here are the respective CMA or CA populations:
Montreal (Laval, Longueuil) 4,098,927
Quebec City (Lévis) 800,296
Trois-Rivières 156,042

Calgary 1,392,609
Edmonton 1,321,426
Red Deer 100,418
While Montreal is almost twice the size of Calgary, Edmonton is more than 1 1/2 times the size of Qutebec City to make up for it. Trois-Rivières and Red Deer are both significantly smaller but will contribute to the demand, especially because of the shorter distances.
.
Montreal is not *almost twice* the size of Calgary, it's more than the double the size. It's bigger than Calgary and Edmonton combined with almost the size of another Edmonton or Calgary left over.
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  #278  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2019, 5:45 PM
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Montreal is not *almost twice* the size of Calgary, it's more than the double the size. It's bigger than Calgary and Edmonton combined with almost the size of another Edmonton or Calgary left over.
Oops. You are correct. I was thinking about the total population of the route (which I didn't mention). I will correct it. Even still, I still think a Calgary and Edmonton HFR service could be viable. I would argue that there is probably better synergy between two medium sized cities than there is between a large city and a small city.
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  #279  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2019, 6:15 PM
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  #280  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2019, 6:40 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Oops. You are correct. I was thinking about the total population of the route (which I didn't mention). I will correct it. Even still, I still think a Calgary and Edmonton HFR service could be viable. I would argue that there is probably better synergy between two medium sized cities than there is between a large city and a small city.
No worries.

For the record, I think Calgary-Edmonton could be a viable corridor, but I don't think it's clearly a better one than Montreal-Quebec City.

Even outside of the cities, southern Quebec is more populated than the main Alberta corridor overall, and almost certainly has more population in closer proximity in other jurisdictions that might provide some "gravy" ridership for the train as well.
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