Via rail

[Dengler Avenue]

At this rate, the discussion’s starting to sound a lot like the one here:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...64316&page=100 page 98~100

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

And with REM, a fast, frequent connection to downtown would be available.



It really depends on the city, but what you are saying is often true. Certainly in a large city, it is rare for the station to be within walking distance of your final destination so a transfer is necessary. In fact, many European cities have multiple stations for intercity trains in different directions, so a transfer could mean changing stations.

In Brussels for example, the intercity and high speed trains don't stop at their Central Station, but a free transfer (with an intercity ticket) was available to take a different train from Midi Station to Central Station. It is very fast and easy to do. When I was there last summer, there was a rail strike and they were apologizing because the trains were only every 15 minutes as a result. No issues of overcrowding though.

But these multiple or secondary stations in European cities are never in the types of areas that we've been discussing here.

This for example is where Hamburg's secondary rail station, Altona, is located:
https://www.google.com/maps/search/A.../data=!3m1!1e3

That's a far cry from Ottawa's station on Tremblay Road, or Ville Mont-Royal in Montreal.

I can see attractive and logical station locations outside of the heart of our downtowns in districts like Yonge-Eglinton, and maybe North York Centre or even the Lansdowne Park area in Ottawa, but I don't think any of that is in the cards. If you move the stations out of downtown Montreal and Toronto, what you'll end up with is more Ottawa Stations, not the Gare de l'Est and the Gare du Nord.

[Dengler Avenue]

I have an idea:
If VIA’s bent on going southshore between Montreal and Quebec City, is it willing to spend money double-tracking from scratch using the median of Autoroute 20? It seems that nobody talks about monorail between the two cities anymore. Obviously this will require negotiating with MTQ and CN*.

* I’m guessing the rail that goes across A-20 in Saint Hyacinthe is a CN spur. Perhaps it’s in MTQ’s interest to eliminate that at-grade crossing too, in which case VIA and MTQ have common ground.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by wave46

If someone from Halifax could take Maritime Bus to Quebec City and then connect to VIA rail from there to Toronto seamlessly, it might be a more viable option than an airplane or car.

The bus ride to Quebec City alone would be 10 hours while a Halifax-Toronto flight is about 2.5.

[JHikka]

Anybody that suggests taking a bus ride that's longer than four hours likely has never taken a bus for longer than four hours.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But these multiple or secondary stations in European cities are never in the types of areas that we've been discussing here.

This for example is where Hamburg's secondary rail station, Altona, is located:
https://www.google.com/maps/search/A.../data=!3m1!1e3

That's a far cry from Ottawa's station on Tremblay Road, or Ville Mont-Royal in Montreal.

I can see attractive and logical station locations outside of the heart of our downtowns in districts like Yonge-Eglinton, and maybe North York Centre or even the Lansdowne Park area in Ottawa, but I don't think any of that is in the cards. If you move the stations out of downtown Montreal and Toronto, what you'll end up with is more Ottawa Stations, not the Gare de l'Est and the Gare du Nord.

It really depends on which city/station you are talking about. Here is Paddington Station in London for example.

https://goo.gl/maps/RjGxSAe97S52

Compare that to Gare Canora (one feasible location in Montreal):

https://goo.gl/maps/X66cpNo3SL42

All things considered, they don't seem all that different to me. A bit less density and less retail, but that can change (Paddington Station is over 150 years old).

In Europe, most of the development around the stations occurred because of the stations, not the other way around. You can't expect a new station to be built in an area that is already highly developed.

As for Tremblay Station in Ottawa, I agree that there is lots of room for improvement, but the NCC has mismanaged the whole thing IMHO. The Confederation line is an opportunity to improve things, but it won't happen overnight.

https://goo.gl/maps/QXqv34rWg8s

[Dengler Avenue]

That’s my thought too. Perhaps the new station in Montreal can revitalize the surrounding area.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But these multiple or secondary stations in European cities are never in the types of areas that we've been discussing here.

This for example is where Hamburg's secondary rail station, Altona, is located:
https://www.google.com/maps/search/A.../data=!3m1!1e3

That's a far cry from Ottawa's station on Tremblay Road, or Ville Mont-Royal in Montreal.

I can see attractive and logical station locations outside of the heart of our downtowns in districts like Yonge-Eglinton, and maybe North York Centre or even the Lansdowne Park area in Ottawa, but I don't think any of that is in the cards. If you move the stations out of downtown Montreal and Toronto, what you'll end up with is more Ottawa Stations, not the Gare de l'Est and the Gare du Nord.

It is practically on the UdM campus, it is one REM stop from McGill and two from the current station.

[Acajack]

Those Europe-Canada parallels still aren't obvious to me. At least not with the examples that have been given so far.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Those Europe-Canada parallels still aren't obvious to me. At least not with the examples that have been given so far.

It is always hard to compare Europe to Canada for many reasons. We can't expect the same as what they have.

[MolsonExport]

Canora is in TMR, which is NIMBY-central

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Those Europe-Canada parallels still aren't obvious to me. At least not with the examples that have been given so far.

Termini or Tiburtina stations in Rome in terms of distance and environment around the station
Most of the London intercity stations had pretty similar environments until very recent development activity, none of them are close to areas you might consider “downtown”
Barcelona Sants in terms of distance from areas that might be considered “downtown “

People don’t generally arrive at intercity stations on foot, they arrive by public transportation or private vehicle. You need something that is centrally located and accessible to transit.

[MolsonExport]

I've been to a lot of train stations in Europe. They are not always in the most desirable parts of the town (probably because the noise, smells, etc. generated by such places, and their propensity to attract undesirables/vagrants), but rarely are they out in the boonies. Most are very close to the centre, if not right in the centre. Some of my recent train travels in Europe included getting on/off at these stations, among others. All stations were right in the heart of the city, or very nearby, except maybe Rome's (even so, it is within striking distance).
Amsterdam
Lille (2 stations)
Paris (3 stations)
Marseille
Porto
Braga
Rome
Bari
Naples
Venice
Verona
Florence
Bologna
Reims
Avignon
Nimes
Arles
Lyon (2 stations)
Vienna
London
Bruges
Antwerp
Groningen

Canora (TMR) is, relatively speaking, buttfuck nowhere.

[Nouvellecosse]

How about converting Gare Parc back into a train station. It's already on the Blue line and they could build an efficient new tram down Parc for those who want a one-seat ride downtown

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I've been to a lot of train stations in Europe. They are not always in the most desirable parts of the town (probably because the noise, smells, etc. generated by such places, and their propensity to attract undesirables/vagrants), but rarely are they out in the boonies. Most are very close to the centre, if not right in the centre. Some of my recent train travels in Europe included getting on/off at these stations, among others. All stations were right in the heart of the city, or very nearby, except maybe Rome's (even so, it is within striking distance).
Amsterdam
Lille (2 stations)
Paris (3 stations)
Marseille
Porto
Braga
Rome
Bari
Naples
Venice
Verona
Florence
Bologna
Reims
Avignon
Nimes
Arles
Lyon (2 stations)
Vienna
London
Bruges
Antwerp
Groningen

Canora (TMR) is, relatively speaking, buttfuck nowhere.

I will add the following
Zurich
Milan
Oslo
Bergen
Gothenburg
Prague
Wroclaw Poland
Copenhagen
Malmo Sweden

The selling point for me taking the train to Montreal or Toronto is to arrive downtown so I could walk to my hotel.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I've been to a lot of train stations in Europe. They are not always in the most desirable parts of the town (probably because the noise, smells, etc. generated by such places, and their propensity to attract undesirables/vagrants), but rarely are they out in the boonies. Most are very close to the centre, if not right in the centre. Some of my recent train travels in Europe included getting on/off at these stations, among others. All stations were right in the heart of the city, or very nearby, except maybe Rome's (even so, it is within striking distance).
Amsterdam
Lille (2 stations)
Paris (3 stations)
Marseille
Porto
Braga
Rome
Bari
Naples
Venice
Verona
Florence
Bologna
Reims
Avignon
Nimes
Arles
Lyon (2 stations)
Vienna
London
Bruges
Antwerp
Groningen

Canora (TMR) is, relatively speaking, buttfuck nowhere.

You have an interesting definition of “in the heart of the city”
I have been to probably 2/3 of those stations. In very few of them could you comfortably walk to the central part of the city from the main intercity station with luggage. Certainly not Vienna, London, Avignon, Verona, Venice, Rome or Paris.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You have an interesting definition of “in the heart of the city”
I have been to probably 2/3 of those stations. In very few of them could you comfortably walk to the central part of the city from the main intercity station with luggage. Certainly not Vienna, London, Avignon, Verona, Venice, Rome or Paris.

Perhaps not, but they're all in areas of those cities that would be equivalent to an area like the Glebe/Lansdowne Park in Ottawa. The (Ville) Mont-Royal area in Montreal that is being proposed here isn't really like that at all.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I've been to a lot of train stations in Europe. They are not always in the most desirable parts of the town (probably because the noise, smells, etc. generated by such places, and their propensity to attract undesirables/vagrants), but rarely are they out in the boonies. Most are very close to the centre, if not right in the centre. Some of my recent train travels in Europe included getting on/off at these stations, among others. All stations were right in the heart of the city, or very nearby, except maybe Rome's (even so, it is within striking distance).

Amsterdam
Lille (2 stations)
Paris (3 stations)
Marseille
Porto
Braga
Rome
Bari
Naples
Venice
Verona
Florence
Bologna
Reims
Avignon
Nimes
Arles
Lyon (2 stations)
Vienna
London
Bruges
Antwerp
Groningen

Canora (TMR) is, relatively speaking, buttfuck nowhere.

We aren't talking boonies but 5 km from Central Station. As acottawa said:

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is practically on the UdM campus, it is one REM stop from McGill and two from the current station.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

How about converting Gare Parc back into a train station. It's already on the Blue line and they could build an efficient new tram down Parc for those who want a one-seat ride downtown

Gare Parc is further from downtown and the Blue line doesn't even go downtown so I don't see what the advantage would be, but it is another option.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You have an interesting definition of “in the heart of the city”
I have been to probably 2/3 of those stations. In very few of them could you comfortably walk to the central part of the city from the main intercity station with luggage. Certainly not Vienna, London, Avignon, Verona, Venice, Rome or Paris.

Just for Paris, Gare du Nord is very much in the heart. So is Gare du l'Est. So is Gare du Montparnasse. Central Paris sprawls.

I always walk from the station to my hotel...

European centres cover way more ground than their North American counterparts of similar size.

this is not the outskirts of Paris:


Central station, it could be argued, is neither at the heart of Montreal. Or Windsor Station, when both were constructed. (Bonaventure was, but it is gone)

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by roger1818

We aren't talking boonies but 5 km from Central Station. As acottawa said:


Gare Parc is further from downtown and the Blue line doesn't even go downtown so I don't see what the advantage would be, but it is another option.

Montreal is my hometown and I taught at UdeM, and no, we are not downtown by any stretch of the imagination.

As for Canora, I have family in TMR so I am extremely familiar with the location.