What is the least "WASP" city in the United States?

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

there very well might be (i don't honestly know), but if there are, they're essentially invisible in relation to the irish catholics, who tend to be a lot more in your face about it.

as i alluded to above, in my experience people of scots-irish ancestry were often an early mixed ancestry, making the “urban ethnic identity” question a bit moot. i think the identity really gelled here - and assimilating other (largely protestant) groups. crashing into the appalachian wilderness like maniacs together forging an early american identity with the remaining native americans in many cases as well. my anglo ancestors were marrying into protestant french and german families in the 18th century for instance. or were my french ancestors marrying into scots irish families?

hard to say but i think its part of the package. thats why scots-irish is a funny group to pin down.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

there very well might be (i honestly don't know*), but if there are, they're essentially invisible in relation to chicago's irish catholics, who tend to be a lot more in your face about it.



(*) anecdotal, but i can't remember ever hearing anyone in chicago describe themselves as being "scots-irish". however, that doesn't mean they don't exist here, it just speaks to their "invisibility".

Yeah, definitely... I think it's the subdued conservatism of the WASPy culture... no discussions of religion or politics, hardly any drinking... it's that "old money" attitude (or rather lack of attitude), even if there is no old money to speak of.

It's funny, I'm half Irish Catholic... big family on my mom's side... she's the oldest of 9. One of my best friends, who grew up across the street from me, is full Irish Presbyterian.

I've been to many of his family gatherings. The differences between my family gatherings and his are hilarious. Their gatherings are relatively small, sedate, "tea Party-ish" affairs, where everyone is pleasant and polite. Our gatherings end up with people fighting in front yard.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Well, much of rural/small town Pennsylvania is Scots-Irish too.

Not sure what you mean by "Scots-Irish crazy train"..?

essentially “writing yourself upon the land” on the scale that the scots-irish did doesn’t happen with a people very often in the history of human movement. in that sense it was a profoundly manic endeavor.

twentieth century germans of course famously attempted to speedrun this upon eurasia, failing spectacularly.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

twentieth century germans of course famously attempted to speedrun this upon eurasia, failing spectacularly.

but their 19th century forbearers did pretty well for themselves in the american midwest.


source: https://www.businessinsider.com/ance...eritage-2018-7

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Yeah, definitely... I think it's the subdued conservatism of the WASPy culture... no discussions of religion or politics, hardly any drinking... it's that "old money" attitude (or rather lack of attitude), even if there is no old money to speak of.

It's funny, I'm half Irish Catholic... big family on my mom's side... she's the oldest of 9. One of my best friends, who grew up across the street from me, is full Irish Presbyterian.

I've been to many of his family gatherings. The differences between my family gatherings and his are hilarious. Their gatherings are relatively small, sedate, "tea Party-ish" affairs, where everyone is pleasant and polite. Our gatherings end up with people fighting in front yard.

it’s funny that theres these two lobes to the scots-irish identity. my parents are the same way with the “tea party” like gatherings. this in comparison to the german-catholic/bavarian bacchanals at my wifes family gatherings.

then theres the beer drinking four-wheeling lobe of the scots-irish culture which almost feels like an intentional reaction to itself in a funny way.

[IrishIllini]

German ancestry is massively overreported by white Americans. White Americans are primarily from the British & Irish Isles with a decent amount of German ancestry. Most are far from being even mostly German.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

but their 19th century forbearers did pretty well for themselves in the american midwest.


source: https://www.businessinsider.com/ance...eritage-2018-7

german farmer (and urban middle class) muscle meat hung on a scots-irish skeleton.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

German ancestry is massively overreported by white Americans. White Americans are primarily from the British & Irish Isles with a decent amount of German ancestry. Most are far from being even mostly German.

seems like midwesterners (and others) with the scots-irish package get so confused by the ancestry that they just go for the “i’m german” thing a lot - i’m definitely guilty. southerners/uplanders go with the simple “i’m of american ancestry” instead.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Yeah, definitely... I think it's the subdued conservatism of the WASPy culture... no discussions of religion or politics, hardly any drinking... it's that "old money" attitude (or rather lack of attitude), even if there is no old money to speak of.

It's funny, I'm half Irish Catholic... big family on my mom's side... she's the oldest of 9. One of my best friends, who grew up across the street from me, is full Irish Presbyterian.

I've been to many of his family gatherings. The differences between my family gatherings and his are hilarious. Their gatherings are relatively small, sedate, "tea Party-ish" affairs, where everyone is pleasant and polite. Our gatherings end up with people fighting in front yard.

It's funny too given that the Brits seem to be every bit as much into drinking as the Irish. I don't see that much difference between the pub culture of Ireland and Great Britain (even though the "Irish pub" is more of a global brand).

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

(*) anecdotal, but i can't remember ever hearing anyone in chicago describe themselves as being "scots-irish". however, that doesn't mean they don't exist here, it just speaks to their "invisibility".

I don't think people really refer to themselves as that anymore, nor for a long time. That was a thing for the Northern Irish WASPs to differentiate themselves from the undesirable Irish Catholic newcomers to America back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. I imagine it died out as the Irish integrated into society rather quickly, due to appearance and speaking English of course.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Philly is also very Irish. It's probably as Irish as it is Italian. Even South Philly is very Irish towards the river.

Pittsburgh and western PA is very Irish (Irish ancestry, at least). More so than Philly. Pennsylvania in general, really, has high Irish population... this is pretty much where the Scots-Irish and then Irish first came, with Philly as the entry point.

There's a reason Pittsburgh has the 2nd largest St. Patrick's Day parade after NYC.

Throughout its history in settlement, industry, politics, business, etc., the Irish/Scots-Irish have been very prominent here.

Pittsburgh region names: Carrick, Wilkinsburg, O'Hara, Castle Shannon, Monroeville, McCandless, Donegal, Ben Avon, Connellsville, McKeesport, McKees Rocks, Stanton Heights, New Stanton, Armagh, Hollidaysburg, Carnegie, McMurray, McDonald, McGovern, Laughlintown, Sheraden, Croghansville, Munhall, Kennedy, Finleyville, Scott... the place is crawling with potato eaters.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by pj3000

There's a reason Pittsburgh has the 2nd largest St. Patrick's Day parade after NYC.

I can hear the Chicagoans pounding their keyboards now.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

but their 19th century forbearers did pretty well for themselves in the american midwest.




source: https://www.businessinsider.com/ance...eritage-2018-7

I would bet New York that is German as well, if not for NYC area.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I can hear the Chicagoans pounding their keyboards now.

chicago, st. louis, and i’m sure other cities have the downtown parade and then the “real” parade in an “irish” neighborhood. this probably throws numbers a bit, who knows. lots of people don’t go to both.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I don't think people really refer to themselves as that anymore, nor for a long time. That was a thing for the Northern Irish WASPs to differentiate themselves from the undesirable Irish Catholic newcomers to America back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. I imagine it died out as the Irish integrated into society rather quickly, due to appearance and speaking English of course.



Pittsburgh and western PA is very Irish (Irish ancestry, at least). More so than Philly. Pennsylvania in general, really, has high Irish population... this is pretty much where the Scots-Irish and then Irish first came, with Philly as the entry point.

There's a reason Pittsburgh has the 2nd largest St. Patrick's Day parade after NYC.

Throughout its history in settlement, industry, politics, business, etc., the Irish/Scots-Irish have been very prominent here.

Pittsburgh region names: Carrick, Wilkinsburg, O'Hara, Castle Shannon, Monroeville, McCandless, Donegal, Ben Avon, Connellsville, McKeesport, McKees Rocks, Stanton Heights, New Stanton, Armagh, Hollidaysburg, Carnegie, McMurray, McDonald, McGovern, Laughlintown, Sheraden, Croghansville, Munhall, Kennedy, Finleyville, Scott... the place is crawling with potato eaters.

don’t know if you’ve taken an ancestry test but mine was like a jackson pollock painting with regards to the british isles - every single sub-group of the british isles represented - with the major area scotland but then wales, ireland, england.. i think even cornwall...hard to be like “i’m irish!” knowing this. but i can sense a very old aversion to that going back too...more of a vague connection with scotland if anything.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

German ancestry is massively overreported by white Americans. White Americans are primarily from the British & Irish Isles with a decent amount of German ancestry. Most are far from being even mostly German.

my paternal side is mainly irish.

my maternal side is mainly german.

which one am i supposed to pick?

actually, on the census form when they asked about ethnicity, i checked "other" and wrote in "chicagoan" because at a certain point, reality has to set in.

my family has been farting around chicagoland for many generations now. this european nonsense is mostly nonsense for most of us.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

don’t know if you’ve taken an ancestry test but mine was like a jackson pollock painting with regards to the british isles - every single sub-group of the british isles represented - with the major area scotland but then wales, ireland, england.. i think even cornwall...hard to be like “i’m irish!” knowing this. but i can sense a very old aversion to that going back too...more of a vague connection with scotland if anything.

Yeah... I mean, Irish/English/Scottish/Welsh... it's all the same people... diluted Celt/Druid/Viking/Norman/etc. stock.

On my mother's side, what I know is that my recent ancestors came from Ireland. But I'm sure I'd get the british isles cocktail if I took a genetic ancestry test.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Quixote

I've always been fascinated that Boston is every bit as Italian as NYC, yet that demographic reality hasn't really been interpreted through stereotypes or pop culture. Jay Leno and Steve Carrell (nee Caroselli) are the only Italian Bostonians that immediately come to mind.

I also wonder if NYC's "Irish-ness" is now more legacy than anything else, especially compared to Boston. Boston's Irish heritage is still strong today; parents still name their kids "Ryan Patrick Dolan" or "Shea Keegan McDonagh." There's even a band from Quincy named "Dropkick Murphys." Does that sort of alacrity to proudly identify and proclaim oneself as "Irish" exist in NYC like it does with the Italian and Jewish communities? For what it's worth though, NYPD's police commissioner is named "Dermot Shea" and one "Sean Patrick Maloney" is vying for the chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

Boston is far more "Irish ethnic" than anywhere in America, but NYC is more Irish immigrant. The Italian ancestry shares may be similar for both metros but it's by the largest white by quite a margin in the NYC metro. Pretty much the whole metro has been "Italianized" to some extent, many suburban counties are 20%+ Italian American.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

ha, not like that. but instagram is full of people of protestant-irish descent crashing monster trucks and blowing shit up in the countryside. i mean that’s basically the genesis of american “redneck” culture. or...”hillbilly” if you don’t take kindly to that term...


decider.com

https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-cul...-hill-country/

The mountain clans that would come to be known as the cedar choppers, or cedar whackers, first settled in Appalachia in the eighteenth century, moving west through the Ozarks before finding their way to Central Texas shortly after the Civil War. An earlier wave of German and Anglo settlers had already established farms throughout the Hill Country, but their intensive tilling and overgrazing practices quickly depleted the region’s thin topsoil, allowing Ashe juniper—a shrubby tree known colloquially as mountain cedar—to spread out of the region’s steep canyons and across disturbed rocky slopes where native grass once grew. By the turn of the twentieth century, most of the wealthy farmers had moved on to greener pastures.

The mountain folk didn’t have much to begin with, and they were well suited for the woodlands, so they hunkered down. For generations, they eked out a meager existence hunting, fishing, stocking semi-feral pigs and cattle, distilling moonshine, and cutting cedar, which they used to build zigzagging “worm fences” and rustic barns or burned to sell as charcoal. As the nature writer John Graves explains in his 1973 essay collection Hard Scrabble: Observations on a Patch of Land, “The cedar people asked less of the land and of life than those who had come before; the land had much less to give.”

The mountain folk represented but a sliver of the Scotch-Irish people who settled in Texas, of course. “Isolation allowed them to keep their ways,” Roberts says. As the already clannish cedar choppers further withdrew from society, they became ever more insular. Folklorist Alan Lomax encountered cedar chopper families in the thirties and recorded them singing traditional English ballads like “The Romish Lady” and “Seven Long Years.” They had their own manner of speaking, distinct from their fellow Texans, and lived by a code of freedom and personal honor. “There was a lot of murder and mayhem going on,” Roberts says, “but they wouldn’t steal.”

Austin’s elites, despite their fears—or perhaps because of them—responded to the presence of cedar choppers with ridicule. One country club hosted a “Hill Country Cedar Chopper”–themed dance, replete with hillbilly costumes and fake beards. Cedar choppers also entered the region’s folklore as bogeymen, featured in the kinds of scary stories told around a crackling campfire. The term “cedar chopper” became a catchall pejorative for the region’s hillbillies, not unlike “Okie” in California and “cracker” in Georgia. Today, the equivalent term would be “white trash” or “redneck.”

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

yeah i mean these people are who arguably “filled out” almost the entire south, eastern uplands and lower midwest between cities.

i also have protestant irish ancestry, along with huguenot (french protestant) and scottish - they all sort of welded together into the scots-irish people who rampaged over the appalachians basically on foot.

Their spread also includes smaller Appalachian-like ranges like the Ouachitas, Ozarks, and Hill Country.

Here in Texas they are currently being displaced by rising property values and re-cultivation of the land for wineries by mostly German-descent and Anglo-descent whites.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Boston is waaaay more Irish than NYC, but NYC has far more actual Irish immigrants and their kids. The only neighborhoods in the U.S. where you have a substantial concentration of Irish immigrants are along the North Bronx/Yonkers border and in Sunnyside, Queens.

But the Boston area is Irish like the NY area is Jewish. It totally pervades the local gestalt.

Philly is also very Irish. It's probably as Irish as it is Italian. Even South Philly is very Irish towards the river.

Yes, I know Boston is way more Irish than NYC. What I want to know is if holding on to their Irish heritage is important for a lot of multi-generational Irish-Americans that live in the Greater NYC area. Do they make a big deal out of St. Patrick's Day? Do they plan on naming their children Irish names? Do they have relatives in Ireland?

Also, you mentioned Jewish, but what about Italian? It isn't NYC without bagels AND pizzas.