Via rail - Page 19

roger1818 · #**361** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 5:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

There are also many isolated communities on the Winnipeg-Capreol segment of the route, those would have presumably had to have been covered somehow if The Canadian had used CP tracks instead.

Although I suppose it wouldn't have been much different than the current arrangement where the communities on the CP line from Sudbury-White River are serviced by RDCs... they could have operated a RDC on a two day run, stopping overnight halfway, say in Sioux Lookout? Armstrong? Hornepayne? and then carrying on the next day.

That the thing. The train from Sudbury to White River is scheduled to take about 8 hours, which makes it a reasonable day trip (there was only a short stretch of towns that don't have roads). The northern route is much more isolated and much longer. As a result it would need to be done over 2 days, and there is no good city to overnight halfway, so an overnight train makes more sense.

esquire · #**362** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 5:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger1818

That the thing. The train from Sudbury to White River is scheduled to take about 8 hours, which makes it a reasonable day trip (there was only a short stretch of towns that don't have roads). The northern route is much more isolated and much longer. As a result it would need to be done over 2 days, and there is no good city to overnight halfway, so an overnight train makes more sense.

It's probably more useful as a day train, and it also reduces costs to some extent by eliminating the overhead attached to sleeping cars and possibly food service as well. There are towns along the way.

roger1818 · #**363** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 6:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

It's probably more useful as a day train, and it also reduces costs to some extent by eliminating the overhead attached to sleeping cars and possibly food service as well. There are towns along the way.

Towns yes, Cities no. Do any of those towns have decent hotels for people to overnight?

As for saving money by eliminating the overhead attached to sleeping cars, we were talking about the idea that VIA could have used the southern (CP) route instead of the northern (CN) route for the Canadian, so that cost is a wash. Instead you are substituting an, 484km 1 day train service with a 1500km 2 (or maybe 3) day train service.

If you are talking about breaking up the Canadian into a string of day trips, there are some sections where that might make sense, but Northern Ontario is not one of them.

Once there is the political will to build a second highway connecting eastern and western Canada is built (yes, there is only one through road, north of Lake Superior between the junction of Hwy 11 and 17 near Nipigon and Thunder Bay), then some of these towns may be actually have roads, and we can look at rerouting The Canadian.

esquire · #**364** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 7:20 PM**

^ Via trains used to overnight at Capreol and these days they bunk down in tiny towns like Churchill, so it's not like you need a Hilton to accommodate their crews.

Urban_Sky · #**365** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 7:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Via trains used to overnight at Capreol and these days they bunk down in tiny towns like Churchill, so it's not like you need a Hilton to accommodate their crews.

You can check all archived VIA timetables, but VIA always offered on-board overnight accommodations between Capreol, Sioux Lookout and Winnipeg (even between November 1981 and January 1990, when the Canadian and the Super-Continental were jointly operated via Thunder Bay).

As for Hotels, I challenge you to name any community between Capreol/Sudbury and Sioux Lookout, which has at least 15 hotel rooms (2 Locomotive Engineers, 1 Service Manager and at least one dozen rooms for passengers) available at short notice. And even if you could name one, a reasonable estimate would be that operating a train over more than three times the current distance (1499 km vs. 484 km today) would incur close to 3 times the current subsidy need, thus $10 million rather than $3.3 million (for Sudbury-White River) currently...

roger1818 · #**366** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 8:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Via trains used to overnight at Capreol and these days they bunk down in tiny towns like Churchill, so it's not like you need a Hilton to accommodate their crews.

I'm less concerned about the crew and more concerned about the passengers. People in those small towns will mostly want to go to either Winnipeg or Toronto (maybe Sudbury). Having to overnight in a tiny town en-route would not be beneficial to them.

Ottawaresident · #**367** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 8:39 PM**

Why would someone need to overnight? In places with EFFICIENCY they can run trains overnight. Why don't trains go to Capreol? A train slightly to the south shouldn't cost all that much?

esquire · #**368** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 8:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

You can check all archived VIA timetables, but VIA always offered on-board overnight accommodations between Capreol, Sioux Lookout and Winnipeg (even between November 1981 and January 1990, when the Canadian and the Super-Continental were jointly operated via Thunder Bay).

As for Hotels, I challenge you to name any community between Capreol/Sudbury and Sioux Lookout, which has at least 15 hotel rooms (2 Locomotive Engineers, 1 Service Manager and at least one dozen rooms for passengers) available at short notice. And even if you could name one, a reasonable estimate would be that operating a train over more than three times the current distance (1499 km vs. 484 km today) would incur close to 3 times the current subsidy need, thus $10 million rather than $3.3 million (for Sudbury-White River) currently...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a good idea. It's just that if Via moved The Canadian to the CP main line, there would likely have to be some sort of replacement train on the CN line. Either day trains that stop for the night as I suggested, or reinstatement of the old Continental from the late 80s.

roger1818 · #**369** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 9:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ottawaresident

Why would someone need to overnight? In places with EFFICIENCY they can run trains overnight. Why don't trains go to Capreol? A train slightly to the south shouldn't cost all that much?

VIA does currently have overnight service along that route. esquire suggested that the overnight service be replaced with daytime services in Northern Ontario so that The Canadian can take the southern route.

roger1818 · #**370** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 9:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a good idea. It's just that if Via took roger1818's advice and moved The Canadian to the CP main line, there would likely have to be some sort of replacement train on the CN line. Either day trains that stop for the night as I suggested, or reinstatement of the old Continental from the late 80s.

Please don't put words in my mouth! I never said that!

rbt · #**371** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 9:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger1818

If you are talking about breaking up the Canadian into a string of day trips, there are some sections where that might make sense, but Northern Ontario is not one of them.

One of VIA's lowest ridership routes has exactly that setup. Prince Rupert to Jasper has an overnight in Prince George where you're on your own to find accommodation.

Considering the high ticket prices of the Rockey Mountaineer and the general complaints about the Canadian going through the mountains overnight, that Jasper/Prince Rupert section should be fairly well travelled. Flights out of Prince Rupert are reasonably priced despite the ferry. Both Jasper and Prince Rupert are great places to spend a few days too.

I don't believe a string of day trips would sell well.

esquire · #**372** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 9:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger1818

Please don't put words in my mouth! I never said that!

Sorry, my mistake. It has been corrected.

For what it's worth I think the current setup makes the most sense. The point of my comment is to show that if The Canadian moved to CP's tracks, there would still be a need to service the communities along the CN line.

esquire · #**373** Posted **Feb 28, 2019, 9:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbt

One of VIA's lowest ridership routes has exactly that setup. Prince Rupert to Jasper has an overnight in Prince George where you're on your own to find accommodation.

Considering the high ticket prices of the Rockey Mountaineer and the general complaints about the Canadian going through the mountains overnight, that Jasper/Prince Rupert section should be fairly well travelled. Flights out of Prince Rupert are reasonably priced despite the ferry. Both Jasper and Prince Rupert are great places to spend a few days too.

I don't believe a string of day trips would sell well.

That VIA train to Prince Rupert used to be a night train. I remember riding it in 1994, it was a wonderful trip.

Somewhere along the line it was switched to day trains with an overnight stop, but I was never clear as to why. The marketing material spoke to the benefit of being able to see the scenery by day, but I got the impression that was only half the story.

Ottawaresident · #**374** Posted **Mar 4, 2019, 6:51 PM**

Why does VIA run service to places where almost nobody lives anyways ...

esquire · #**375** Posted **Mar 4, 2019, 7:00 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ottawaresident

Why does VIA run service to places where almost nobody lives anyways ...

Because there are some people living along those lines and for many of them, the train is the only practical way to get around.

Ottawaresident · #**376** Posted **Mar 4, 2019, 8:43 PM**

And for some of them, (like Calgary, St John, Sherbrooke) they are too right wing for the Liberals to run trains there.

ghYHZ · #**377** Posted **Mar 4, 2019, 10:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ottawaresident

And for some of them, (like Calgary, St John, Sherbrooke) they are too right wing for the Liberals to run trains there.

At least they have travel options. On those VIA routes to White River, Northern Quebec, Churchill....there is just no other way in or out of some of the communities served.

Dengler Avenue · #**378** Posted **Mar 5, 2019, 12:18 AM**

White River's actually on the Trans-Canada Highway Lake Superior Route (17) with a "connector" (the 631) to TCH Northern Ontario Route (11), but I guess you can say that there's no other way out if the roads are closed.

ghYHZ · #**379** Posted **Mar 5, 2019, 12:45 AM**

Yes....White River has access but it's some of the communities in the woods between there and Sudbury that have no access other than the VIA service. Same for the Nothern Quebec and Churchill trains. The end points have other options...but not a lot of the communities in between do.

roger1818 · #**380** Posted **Mar 5, 2019, 4:33 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

Yes....White River has access but it's some of the communities in the woods between there and Sudbury that have no access other than the VIA service. Same for the Nothern Quebec and Churchill trains. The end points have other options...but not a lot of the communities in between do.

Exactly. The objective is to let people get to a town that has roads. A route in which none of the stations/stops have access to roads would be pretty useless.