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  #7561  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 10:15 PM
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CrestedSaguaro CrestedSaguaro is offline
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Here's more on the Phoenix Cool Pavement Pilot Program with a list of areas/streets that have already been completed: https://www.phoenix.gov/streets/coolpavement
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  #7562  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2020, 11:29 PM
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Upcoming Virtual Meetings on Bus Rapid Transit

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  #7563  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2020, 12:32 AM
exit2lef exit2lef is online now
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Originally Posted by pbenjamin View Post
Link doesn't work. I think it's tied to your email account. Here's what's on the city's BRT website:

https://www.phoenix.gov/publictransi...brt-engagement

What's not clear to me is if these are more of the same meetings that were held over the summer, or if these are updates on the project. If the former, it seems like the city is going meeting crazy here with so many online events over so many months. Maybe it's an effort to avoid 11th hour neighborhood claims of "no one told us" like we saw with the South Central light rail extension.
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  #7564  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2020, 5:26 AM
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Sorry about the link, I should pay better attention.

Not sure what the motivation was but there seemed to be some urgency to spreading the word about the meetings.

Quote:
The BRT team has diligently been working to get the word out about Bus Rapid Transit (BRT). As a continuation of this effort, the Public Transit Department is hosting virtual public meetings to provide information on the Phoenix BRT Program and to solicit feedback on potential BRT corridors and network scenarios.

Please note that these meetings will include the same presentation that was shared at your VPC meeting within the last several months.
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  #7565  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2020, 1:53 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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Brt is an interesting option for a light rail replacement. I'm no transit expert but I think brt is supposed to carry almost as many passengers, move almost as quickly, and cost just a fraction of the light rail. Would like to see brt run down dunlap from 19th and up cave creek over to pv mall.

Almost makes me wonder what the appeal of lrt is.
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  #7566  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2020, 3:35 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is online now
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
Brt is an interesting option for a light rail replacement. I'm no transit expert but I think brt is supposed to carry almost as many passengers, move almost as quickly, and cost just a fraction of the light rail. Would like to see brt run down dunlap from 19th and up cave creek over to pv mall.

Almost makes me wonder what the appeal of lrt is.
I wonder where Take Five went. I used to have this debate with that forum member all the time. BRT is fine if you want to improve bus service in corridors where rail is not feasible. It's wishful thinking to suggest, however, that BRT is just as good as light rail at a fraction of the cost.

No matter how much buses are gussied up with distinctive branding, limited stops, dedicated lanes, and all-door boarding, they're still just buses that are nowhere near as comfortable and quiet as trains can be. Even that scenario assumes that a city does full BRT and doesn't succumb to "BRT creep" in which BRT is downgraded to lose most of its distinguising features.

In terms of cost, the more train-like BRT becomes, the more expensive it is to implement. That's just the up-front capital costs. Over time, the operating costs for BRT aren't much better than rail because buses have shorter lifespans than rail cars. Also, because even the longest articulated buses can't carry as many people as a three-car train, you need more buses and more operators to carry the same number of people.

The corridor you suggest does potentially make sense for BRT because it's farther north in less dense parts of the city and skirts the Phoenix Mountain Preserve, lessening the opportunity for the type of transit-oriented development catalyzed by rail. I'd also suggest Bell Road as a good corridor for BRT. It's the busiest bus route north of the Phoenix Mountain Preserve but not a good candidate for rail because it is distant from the existing tracks.

Where BRT makes less sense to me is where it is currently being proposed in central Phoenix. Sure, Thomas Road would be better off with BRT than the current local bus service, but it would be even better to have light rail there.

Last edited by exit2lef; Nov 3, 2020 at 5:31 PM.
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  #7567  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2020, 5:10 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
Brt is an interesting option for a light rail replacement. I'm no transit expert but I think brt is supposed to carry almost as many passengers, move almost as quickly, and cost just a fraction of the light rail. Would like to see brt run down dunlap from 19th and up cave creek over to pv mall.

Almost makes me wonder what the appeal of lrt is.
I don't think BRT creates development. Also, I have no problem taking the light rail, but i would never hop on a bus. That's anecdotal, but i'm sure that i'm not alone.
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  #7568  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2020, 6:00 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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I thought the point was to move people efficiently, not just to create development.

exit2left you made a few good points but I still have to wonder. Light rail isn't an option for commuting for a lot of people because it's so much slower than driving to work, so if a brt operates even at 80% (I just made this number up) the speed of light rail it'll be excruciatingly slow. I think both options seem like failures to me tbh.
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  #7569  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2020, 6:35 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I thought the point was to move people efficiently, not just to create development.

exit2left you made a few good points but I still have to wonder. Light rail isn't an option for commuting for a lot of people because it's so much slower than driving to work, so if a brt operates even at 80% (I just made this number up) the speed of light rail it'll be excruciatingly slow. I think both options seem like failures to me tbh.
Light rail is definitely slower over long distances like going all the way from northwest Phoenix to Mesa, but that's not really how it's used. Most passengers travel a shorter distance, where the speed advantage is less meaningful. Of course, that comparison assumes the user has a car available, the ability to drive it, and a place to park it.

That brings up an interesting issue of competing priorities. Transit improvement plans need to balance two goals: 1) enhancing service for existing passengers 2) attracting new passengers who otherwise would have used another mode (most often a private car). Those goals sometimes align, but at other times they dictate opposing strategies.

If the goal is to attract people who are not currently using transit, rail is the way to go because, as noted above, there are people who will ride trains but not a bus. That's not entirely rational, but it's a consumer preference that cannot be ignored either. Sometimes a bus is just a bus, no matter how upgraded the service is.

If the goal is to improve the experience for existing passengers, then increasing hours and frequency of bus service is essential. Phoenix's Transit 2050 program does a good job, I think, of balancing these two priorities. BRT, though, falls in a grey area in between. It takes bus improvements to an even higher level, but I'm skeptical of its ability to attract new passengers.

Economic development is a nice bonus from rail development, but should not be the primary reason. Moving people should always be the highest priority. That's why I tend to be skeptical of many (although not all) modern streetcar projects. Those tend to be more about economic development than actual transportation needs.
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  #7570  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 2:31 AM
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I-10 Widening

Updated info on the I-10 project with some video. Construction expected to start in 2021 with a 4 year timeline.

Quote:
Arizona DOT Names Preferred Developer for I-10 Project in Phoenix Area

The Arizona Department of Transportation has selected a preferred developer for a project to reconstruct a portion of Interstate 10 in Phoenix that the agency has identified as a key commerce corridor.

I-10 stretches across the southern U.S. from Santa Monica, Calif., to Jacksonville, Fla. It provides an important conduit for freight coming from the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach. ADOT announced a joint venture team representing Pulice Construction Inc., FNF Construction Inc., Flatiron Constructors and T.Y. Lin International has been selected as the preferred developer for the Broadway Curve Improvement Project.

The objective is to improve an 11-mile stretch of I-10 that runs between I-17 and state Route 202. Located southeast of downtown Phoenix, the project zone runs from the Salt River to Chandler and encompasses Tempe and Guadalupe. ADOT, city representatives of Phoenix and Tempe, and the Maricopa Association of Governments were involved in the decision regarding the developer.

“This project will improve safety and efficiency for hundreds of thousands of drivers who travel through the Broadway Curve each weekday and generate $658 million in new economic activity,” said Phoenix Mayor Kate Gallego, who also serves as chair of the Maricopa Association of Governments’ Transportation Policy Committee.

Proposed improvements include widening I-10 to six general-purpose lanes and two high-occupancy vehicle lanes and building a collector-distributor road system, which is meant to separate local and through traffic. The project also will include modifying I-10’s connections with state Route 143, Broadway Road and U.S. Route 60, as well as adding three pedestrian bridges to connect communities.

ADOT estimates about 300,000 vehicles travel through I-10’s Broadway Curve corridor on an average weekday. By 2040, that figure is expected to increase to 375,000.

The project will be partially funded by the Maricopa Association of Governments’ Proposition 400, which is a sales tax dedicated to transportation purposes. Maricopa County voters approved Proposition 400 in 2004.

Encompassing cities such as Phoenix, Scottsdale and Mesa, Maricopa County is rapidly growing. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the county’s population was 4.4 million in 2019, a 17.5% increase from 2010 figures.

“Arizona continues to build the infrastructure of the future and strengthen our transportation network,” Gov. Doug Ducey said. “When completed, this project will help power Arizona’s economic expansion and reduce travel times for hundreds of thousands of commuters.”

Negotiations between ADOT and the joint venture team began this month. If the negotiations are successful, ADOT expects to finalize the contract in early 2021. Construction is scheduled to begin in 2021 and continue for four years.

The Phoenix region, located at the nexus of I-10 and I-17, is an important place for freight movement. According to ADOT’s State Freight Plan, the greatest concentration of freight clusters is located along the I-10 corridor in Phoenix and Tucson. The freight plan notes that, of the freight traveling to, from or within Arizona, more than 83% travels by truck.


Source: https://www.ttnews.com/articles/ariz...t-phoenix-area

Edit: Video link won't work. Here's a flyover of what's coming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l_E...ature=youtu.be
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  #7571  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 4:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CrestedSaguaro View Post
Updated info on the I-10 project with some video. Construction expected to start in 2021 with a 4 year timeline.





Source: https://www.ttnews.com/articles/ariz...t-phoenix-area

Edit: Video link won't work. Here's a flyover of what's coming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l_E...ature=youtu.be
This is very much needed, but after taking this stretch of I10 into work for the last 28 years, I picked a great time to retire to avoid this coming construction.
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  #7572  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 5:33 AM
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The world's widest freeway is Houston's Katy Freeway which apparently maxes out at 23 lanes. I see 23 lanes in this picture. I don't know if they included exits and ramps, but this is one wide beast. I have a nasty feeling this is just going to increase throughput at the cost of commute times and more accidents with how damn wide it is.
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  #7573  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 6:08 AM
N830MH N830MH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrestedSaguaro View Post

Edit: Video link won't work. Here's a flyover of what's coming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l_E...ature=youtu.be

Let me fix it for you.


Video Link


Okay, the video is working now. I just fix it for you.
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  #7574  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 10:52 AM
Code5 Code5 is offline
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
The world's widest freeway is Houston's Katy Freeway which apparently maxes out at 23 lanes. I see 23 lanes in this picture. I don't know if they included exits and ramps, but this is one wide beast. I have a nasty feeling this is just going to increase throughput at the cost of commute times and more accidents with how damn wide it is.
I agree with Combusean. This is a horrible idea. I dont understand why these cities think, "Just add more lanes! That'll fix traffic flow!" That's bullsh*t. That only increases traffic more. Why dont these cities look at what LA has become. I just drove through the LA area last week, it's a nightmare.

And during construction, hot damn, this area is going to be such a clusterf*ck x.x ugh.
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  #7575  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 12:33 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combusean View Post
The world's widest freeway is Houston's Katy Freeway which apparently maxes out at 23 lanes. I see 23 lanes in this picture. I don't know if they included exits and ramps, but this is one wide beast. I have a nasty feeling this is just going to increase throughput at the cost of commute times and more accidents with how damn wide it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Code5 View Post
I agree with Combusean. This is a horrible idea. I dont understand why these cities think, "Just add more lanes! That'll fix traffic flow!" That's bullsh*t. That only increases traffic more. Why dont these cities look at what LA has become. I just drove through the LA area last week, it's a nightmare.

And during construction, hot damn, this area is going to be such a clusterf*ck x.x ugh.
I've tried to talk to ADOT people about induced demand before. Their response is always that we need new roads or lanes just to catch up with existing traffic levels, not so much that they forecast a rosy future of less traffic once new construction occurs. Their minds seem to be stuck on a treadmill that they can't get off of.
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  #7576  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 2:47 PM
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If I am traveling east on Broadway....how am I suppose to get on the freeway?? Make a U-turn at the light??
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  #7577  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 3:10 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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I'm glad they are making efforts to decrease the constant congestion. You guys like to call me negative because I'm tempered and realistic about things but complaining about having a wider freeway seems far more "negative" than anything I've said. What's the rationale? Just because you don't like it.

Sheesh, guys. This is a really big city and the infrastructure improvements are needed as the city keeps growing.
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  #7578  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 3:52 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is online now
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I'm glad they are making efforts to decrease the constant congestion. You guys like to call me negative because I'm tempered and realistic about things but complaining about having a wider freeway seems far more "negative" than anything I've said. What's the rationale? Just because you don't like it.

Sheesh, guys. This is a really big city and the infrastructure improvements are needed as the city keeps growing.
The problem is that their efforts have been proven time and again to be ineffective. In many situations, widening roads provides only temporary relief for congestion until new traffic fills the vacuum and the cycle repeats itself. I like to see new infrastructure when it's a smart investment. This just seems like digging ourselves deeper into a hole.

Last edited by exit2lef; Nov 10, 2020 at 4:24 PM.
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  #7579  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 5:13 PM
KeltonR KeltonR is offline
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So, what are some of the suggestions everyone has instead of this proposal?
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  #7580  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2020, 5:29 PM
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So, what are some of the suggestions everyone has instead of this proposal?
I don't claim to have all the solutions, but these are just some of the ideas that should be considered as alternatives to endless freeway widening:
  • More express bus service
  • Commuter rail linking Phoenix to the East Valley and Tucson
  • HOT lanes (allowing HOV lanes to be used by those willing to pay a toll)
  • Congestion pricing (tolls that vary -- being high at peak, low or zero off-peak)
  • Allowing more density so that people don't have to live so far from work to find affordable housing
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