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  #321  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2010, 2:35 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
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Originally Posted by DJM19 View Post
But year, I dont think Norwalk needs it.
Are there any proposals to remove it from the plan?
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  #322  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2010, 4:06 AM
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Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
Hanford doesn't need a station. Period.
Hanford = Visalia

City:
125,921
Metro:
426,276

Palmdale
152,622

Lancaster
145,776


You were saying?
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  #323  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2010, 5:17 AM
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Originally Posted by DJM19 View Post
I believe the route is limited to 26 stations by law. So if the Hanford region gets a stop, another will be removed from the route. They are not approving any more stations than what was approved in prop 1A. And glendale does not have a station.


But year, I dont think Norwalk needs it.
I suspect with great certainty that that cap on stations is tied to the prop 1A funding. In other words, non 1a funding may provide for additional stations.... But that does not mean express or semi express trains will serve them.
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  #324  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2010, 6:25 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesinclair View Post
Hanford = Visalia

City:
125,921
Metro:
426,276

Palmdale
152,622

Lancaster
145,776


You were saying?
The station will be more than 10 miles from Visalia near Route 43.....with mostly agriculture and little urban land around it.....basically out in the middle of nowhere.

And come on, Palmdale is a different story. It's the largest city on the route between Bakersfield and LA (Glendale won't have a station). Not to mention from there you can transfer to the Metrolink system.
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  #325  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2010, 7:49 AM
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Well, from my understanding, prop 1A stipulates more than funding. It also has the station cap, and it stipulates that a trip from SF to LA has to be done under a certain time limit (perhaps in the fastest most-express route).

But I am not sure.

Anyway, if the cap is maintained, I suspect Norwalk or Sylmar would be cut.
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  #326  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2010, 3:18 PM
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Schwarzenegger names key transportation appointments (LA Times)

Schwarzenegger names key transportation appointments

LA Times
12/30/2010

"Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger announced appointments to key transportation posts Thursday, including the reappointment of former Anaheim Mayor Curt Pringle to the California High-Speed Rail Authority board.

Pringle, who currently heads the panel overseeing development of the state's $43-billion San Francisco-to-Anaheim rail system, was one of two prominent board members scrutinized this fall by the state attorney general for serving in multiple offices that could have clashing financial and other interests.

Pringle served simultaneously on the board of the rail authority, on the Orange County Transportation Authority and as mayor of Anaheim..."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...=Google+Reader
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  #327  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2011, 4:00 AM
jamesinclair jamesinclair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
The station will be more than 10 miles from Visalia near Route 43.....with mostly agriculture and little urban land around it.....basically out in the middle of nowhere.

And come on, Palmdale is a different story. It's the largest city on the route between Bakersfield and LA (Glendale won't have a station). Not to mention from there you can transfer to the Metrolink system.
Clearly you don't live in the valley.

10 miles through endless agriculture = a trip to the walmart.
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  #328  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2011, 5:50 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
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Originally Posted by jamesinclair View Post
Clearly you don't live in the valley.
I do live in the SGV, and it takes, at most, a 3-5 mile drive to the nearest Wal-Mart, which is in Baldwin Park.

Quote:
10 miles through endless agriculture = a trip to the walmart.
But that's the problem; too many people are gonna wanna drive to the station.
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  #329  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2011, 7:09 AM
XtremeDave XtremeDave is offline
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Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
But that's the problem; too many people are gonna wanna drive to the station.
This is inevitable for the rural and exurban stations. While everything should be done in LA and San Francisco (and other cities with developed transit systems) to encourage people to take transit to the HSR stations, the stations in the Central Valley and exurban cities (Palmdale, Gilroy, etc.) will require parking.

High speed rail is part of reducing our dependence on driving, but we have to accept that for most of the stations along the line, driving is the only option most will have to access these stations. I would rather have people drive 10 or 20 miles to an HSR station than be completely car dependent and drive 200 or more miles to their destination.

This doesnt mean that HSR shouldnt be part of strengthening our downtowns and reducing car dependence. We need to make sure that the major cities are integrating HSR into their downtowns. Besides LA and SF, Fresno, Bakersfield, Merced, etc. should have stations that enhance and help revitalize their central cities. However, this means stopping plans like San Diego's plan (while just an early proposal, as phase 2 of HSR isnt supposed to reach their until 2030 and no actual planning has been done) to have HSR terminate at a Lindbergh Field station.
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  #330  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2011, 7:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
But that's the problem; too many people are gonna wanna drive to the station.
What about on the French LGVs then, where the stations are located out on the edge of town, or worse, halfway between the towns they serve?
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  #331  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2011, 12:41 PM
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What about on the French LGVs then, where the stations are located out on the edge of town, or worse, halfway between the towns they serve?
If you mean the rural french stations in between towns: they do NOT work (same with the UK's only park and ride HSR station: Ebbsfleet). I have no clue how it'll work with the american driving culture, but it's clearly shown that stations work best if they're in town.
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  #332  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2011, 3:07 PM
Rational Plan3 Rational Plan3 is offline
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Originally Posted by tigernar View Post
If you mean the rural french stations in between towns: they do NOT work (same with the UK's only park and ride HSR station: Ebbsfleet). I have no clue how it'll work with the american driving culture, but it's clearly shown that stations work best if they're in town.
I think Ebbsfleet is in a better position than some of the French rural LGV. A third of services towards the continent do stop there and it does capture business travellors from the counties surrounding London, especially for getting the early morning trains when you can't catch a train into London that early.

There are over twenty parkway stations in the UK with plenty more proposed. They serve a variety of functions, but a large number, act railheads for long distance services, Unlike the rural stations in France, the ones in the UK are mostly on the edges of large cities where the drive into town will take to long, and the parkway stations act as access points for the surrounding towns and villages.

The biggest example is Bristol Parkway, which is North of Bristol on the mainline between London and Wales. It opened in the 1970's, with two platforms and and a car park. The trains for the city centre still travel via the city centre but trains from Wales and other regional services now call at the parkway. The Parkway has acted as business nucleus for the North Bristol Sprawl, Corporate headquarters, business parks, Ministry of Defence Procurement, Universites and Hospitals all within a short drive.

So Greater Bristol now has four trains an hour to London, two from the centre and two from the suburbs.
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  #333  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2011, 6:38 AM
jamesinclair jamesinclair is offline
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Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
I do live in the SGV, and it takes, at most, a 3-5 mile drive to the nearest Wal-Mart, which is in Baldwin Park.
But that's the problem; too many people are gonna wanna drive to the station.

Fine, then Costco.

The closest Costco from the Hanford Amtrak station is.....in Visalia.

21 miles away.

I GUARANTEE people from hanford drive there.


But you know what, lets talk apples to apples. And in this case, those apples are trains.


Hanford: Pop 53,266
Passengers (2010) 187,865

Corcoran: Pop 25,692
Passengers (2010) 27,375

Hanford has 2x the population of Corcoran....but 7x the ridership.


Fresno: 505,479
Passengers (2010) 352,737

Fresno has 10x the population....but only twice the ridership.


Why? Visalia.

And people are going to drive to the HSR station in the valley regardless of where you place it. Bakersfield, Fresno, Hanford....95% of people will arrive by car, doesnt matter if its right downtown (Fresno, Bakersfield) or out in the middle of nowhere.

You originally said:
"Hanford doesn't need a station. Period."

Hanford may not need a station, but the area between Fresno and Bakersifled, mostly known for the Tulare outlets and Visalia probably does. Add up all those people, and you have yourself decent ridership.
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  #334  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2011, 4:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesinclair View Post
Hanford: Pop 53,266
Passengers (2010) 187,865
Corcoran: Pop 25,692
Passengers (2010) 27,375
Hanford has 2x the population of Corcoran....but 7x the ridership.
Fresno: 505,479
Passengers (2010) 352,737
Fresno has 10x the population....but only twice the ridership.
Why? Visalia.
And people are going to drive to the HSR station in the valley regardless of where you place it. Bakersfield, Fresno, Hanford....95% of people will arrive by car, doesnt matter if its right downtown (Fresno, Bakersfield) or out in the middle of nowhere.
You originally said: "Hanford doesn't need a station. Period."
Hanford may not need a station, but the area between Fresno and Bakersifled, mostly known for the Tulare outlets and Visalia probably does. Add up all those people, and you have yourself decent ridership.
As I've written many times, it's not density that counts as much as it's accessibility. While it is generally true that placing a train station in a dense central business district helps ridership, I think we're forgetting why. The why that rings true is it is more accessible to more people with good public transit helping with the lack of immediate parking. A suburban station with good access, in this case good highways and lots of parking, also helps ridership. Few airports in the world are located immediately near central business districts, the local communities have made great efforts to provide great access to them.
Therefore, a station in the middle of nowhere can have large ridership numbers depending upon how easy it is for locals to get there.
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  #335  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2011, 4:55 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
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The point that i'm trying to make here is why wasn't a route selected that would have the train run closer to Visalia than Hanford? If people are willing to drive, why not make that commute less than it needs to be? While it's probably all but impossible connect the route to the ROW that runs through Visalia along Oak Ave, there's still another ROW along the 99 freeway that's only a few miles from the city.

And if you were willing to place a station closer to Hanford than Visalia, you might as well run the train on the existing Amtrak ROW less than 3 miles further to the west. But then that presents problems like the possibility of ROW widening.
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Last edited by JDRCRASH; Jan 3, 2011 at 5:07 AM. Reason: additional thoughts
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  #336  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2011, 6:47 AM
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Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
The point that i'm trying to make here is why wasn't a route selected that would have the train run closer to Visalia than Hanford?
For political reasons:

The New York Times
"Worries Follow Route of High-Speed California Line"
Jesse McKinley
January 2, 2011
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/us/03borden.html?hp

MADERA, Calif. — The area just south of this agricultural city is not much to look at: miles of farmland, a collection of dingy fast food outlets and a gold rush ghost called Borden, where all that remains is a tiny cemetery devoted to long dead Chinese workers.

But sometime soon, this flat-on-flat expanse — about 150 miles southeast of San Francisco — may well be home to a first-in-the-nation destination as the initial northern terminus of California’s ambitious high-speed rail network.

Under a plan approved in early December, the inaugural stretch of the multispurred 800-mile system will eventually connect San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego and Sacramento and other major California cities and will run through the state’s farm-rich Central Valley.

Federal and state authorities have committed some $5.5 billion to the first leg of the project, which will connect Bakersfield, the valley’s southern hub, and the unincorporated area south of Madera. Construction of what will be the first high-speed rail line in the United States is to begin in 2012 and run through 2017, with the promise of creating tens — even hundreds — of thousands of jobs in an area that suffers some of the highest unemployment rates in the state.

But despite the potential bounty of jobs, high-speed rail has not been fully embraced. After the rail authority approved the initial route in early December, Representative Dennis Cardoza, a Central Valley Democrat, disparagingly referred to it as “the train to nowhere.”

“For the California High-Speed Rail Authority to choose this route is to significantly undermine the public’s trust, marks a gross misuse of taxpayer funds and will alienate significant supporters of the project,” he said.

Part of that agita, of course, may be that the first section of high-speed rail will not pass through his district.

But the congressman is not the only person complaining. Several towns have passed resolutions opposing the project because of worries about the disruption of a 220-mile-an-hour train zipping through downtown districts.

And in the Central Valley, where huge, decades-old government irrigation projects have helped turned California into an agricultural powerhouse, farmers have grumbled about the rail project gobbling up valuable farm land.

“We’re of the belief that the productive farmland is an environmental and societal benefit, and we ought to be doing whatever we can to keep that land productive,” said Dave Kranz, a spokesman for the California Farm Bureau. “And once it’s gone, it’s gone forever.”

Roelof van Ark, the chief executive of the California High-Speed Rail Authority, which is overseeing the project, said he was trying not to take criticism of the project personally. “It’s not about today; it’s about the future,” Mr. van Ark said. “I hope that Mr. Cardoza and others will see the light.”

On Dec. 9, California’s rail authority received a windfall of additional federal stimulus money — some $600 million — when Republican governors in Ohio and Wisconsin passed on money intended for their states. California voters approved high-speed rail in 2008, and deadlines are already passing, including a Dec. 31 cutoff for the state to finalize a plan to spend federal money in the Central Valley. Initial spending will span a raft of projects, including designing stations, redirecting nearby roads and acquiring land.

Still, many details need to be worked out, including the exact route, which must be able to accommodate conventional train systems in case the high-speed rail project fails to find enough financing to be completed. And that uncertainty unsettles local leaders.

“The communication has just been atrocious,” said Mayor Robert Poythress of Madera. “If there have been any messages, they’ve been mixed.”

Ronald W. Hoggard, the city manager of Corcoran, to the south, echoes that sentiment, worrying that the big money involved in the high-speed project — the eventual price will be more than $40 billion — will roll over his small-town concerns. “When they talk about ‘the train to nowhere,’ we’re not nowhere,” Mr. Hoggard said. “We’re Mayberry.”

Mr. Hoggard says Corcoran, a city of 26,000 — including 12,000 “guests of the state” at nearby prisons — had spent years painstakingly restoring its main street, repainting store facades and improving City Hall, and he worries that the train will distract from the city’s carefully shaped character.

“If they were to come through town, with an elevated track, at 85 decibels?” he said. “It’s just inconsistent.”

Mr. van Ark said elevated lines passing through city centers were a possibility, but he played down their impact on small-town life. “Trains do run through the centers of town in the rest of the world,” he said.

The Central Valley is accustomed to rail lines, with freight trains loaded with double-decker cargo cars rolling day and night. And Corcoran itself has a small, quaint Amtrak depot in its downtown core.

Still, the selection of the first segment of rail line was a surprise. Other options included connecting major cities, like Los Angeles and Anaheim or San Francisco and San Jose. But the Federal Rail Administration required that the first federal money be spent in the hard-hit Central Valley.

Mr. van Ark pleads for patience, saying, “This is not about building a line in the Central Valley.” And indeed, while the first link may run from Bakersfield to that ghostly area outside Borden, that is not the final destination anyone has in mind.

“This is all about building an intercity, high-speed network,” he said. “One must put that above where this will start.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/us/03borden.html?hp
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  #337  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2011, 8:01 AM
XtremeDave XtremeDave is offline
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Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
The point that i'm trying to make here is why wasn't a route selected that would have the train run closer to Visalia than Hanford?
There are 2 railroads that run through the Central Valley, one owned by BNSF and the other by Union Pacific. The UP line runs along the 99 (or should I say, the 99 runs along the line) from Bakersfield to Manteca, while the BNSF line runs west of 99 from Bakersfield to Fresno, and east of 99 from Fresno to Stockton. This map of California railroads can show this in graphical form (UP in brown, BNSF in green).

Union Pacific refuses to share ROW or allow HSR to run along their corridor due to concerns over liability regarding derailments impacting HSR, while BNSF has been much more supportive of allowing HSR to run along their ROW. Because of this, the current Fresno-Bakersfield alignment runs almost completely along the BNSF ROW. With the exception of some bypasses of cities like Hanford, the preferred plan is to build as much of the HSR along the existing railroad ROW. However as of now, the preferred alignment for the HSR north of Fresno is along the UP ROW, and it will be seen how this battle will end up.

So while it would be more convenient to have a station closer to Visalia, that would require building HSR along the UP ROW next to CA-99, which UP has no interest in allowing.

Politics somewhat factors into this, since the CHSRA had to get an alignment selected fast in order to qualify for the federal funds, and a long battle with UP would have prevented this from happening and delayed the start of construction.
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  #338  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2011, 10:57 AM
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was just looking at the visualisations on the project's website and thought the SF Bay one was a bit odd...

Video Link


2x tracks for 300kph running right next to slower services and what not... "usually" there'd be a barrier of some sort. Still though if it's pulled off, it'll scare the bejeesus out of passengers on the slow services :lol:
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  #339  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2011, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tayser View Post
was just looking at the visualisations on the project's website and thought the SF Bay one was a bit odd...

2x tracks for 300kph running right next to slower services and what not... "usually" there'd be a barrier of some sort. Still though if it's pulled off, it'll scare the bejeesus out of passengers on the slow services :lol:
The HSR maximum speed for the SF to San Jose segment is planned to be 125 mph. The 220 mph speeds will be on separated tracks south of San Jose.

On the NEC, especially on the busy 4 track stretch in NJ, the Amtrak Northeast Regionals at 125 mph and Acelas at 135 mph overtake the slower commuter trains on the adjacent tracks all the time. The first couple of times you are on a Regional or Acela and another Amtrak train comes by at 125-135 mph in the opposite direction right pass your window, it can be a little startling. But after a couple of times, the experienced rider pretends not to even notice it.
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  #340  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2011, 10:18 PM
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Cool. Reminds me of the NEC north of Stamford.
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