Downtown BRT Plan (Proposal)

[Pimpmasterdac]

As a part of the new draft downtown master plan, it's being proposed to implement a BRT system downtown, as a part of it's larger BRT plans.

Here are some of the highlights:

For this plan there would be a rapid transit loop that circulates on Queens Avenue, King, Wellington and Ridout Streets. The Kensington Bridge would be closed to vehicular traffic. Buses would be removed from Dundas Street in order to create a pleasant and vibrant space. Richmond Street would be narrowed from 4 lanes to 3 lanes between Queens Avenue and York Street to enhance the pedestrian and retail environment. A "Queens Station" would be built, a new transit square at the intersection of Queen Street and Richmond Street using the existing right of-way.

Entire master downtown plan: http://sire.london.ca/view.aspx?cabi...s&fileid=99672

Here are some images of the plan:


Downtown Rapid Transit Loop



Richmond Street, looking south from Queens Avenue

[ssiguy]

That looks like an incredibly great plan!

I ho[e [art of the equation will be to get rid of parking along Dundas so it is 2 lanes plus MUCH wider sidewalks. A good chunk of Dundas' problems is that there can be no sidewalk pedestrian friendly businesses, restuarants, or activities because the sidewalks are very narrow.

I hope they get rid of one lane of King on the south side so the restaurants along that stretch can open cafes.

It looks like such a doable and pedestrian friendly plan that even London could do it and now that Ottawa, Hamilton, Kitchener, Toronto, Miss, Brampton, and Oshawa have all gotten funds for their respective LRT or BRT lines, it would be next to impossible for Queen's Park to refuse money for the plan.

[manny_santos]

That's an awesome plan, I really hope it is taken seriously and implemented. This year marks 40 years since the first BRT plan for downtown was unveiled.

The only thing I'd change is that a bridge linking Riverside Drive to King Street should be included. Taking away the Kensington Bridge as a vehicular access to downtown would not be a good idea without adding an alternate route. While a bridge would be a great, a cheaper solution would be to make Stanley Street one-way eastbound, two lanes.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

The only thing I'd change is that a bridge linking Riverside Drive to King Street should be included. Taking away the Kensington Bridge as a vehicular access to downtown would not be a good idea without adding an alternate route. While a bridge would be a great, a cheaper solution would be to make Stanley Street one-way eastbound, two lanes.

I agree something would need to be done, removing that bridge is fine but they need to increase capacity else ware if so.

[haljackey]

Sadly the plan means nothing without a price tag. All these visions and renders look nice but it's all conceptual without a number attached to it.

I'm surprised Richmond would be 3 lanes. I'd make it 2 with 2 BRT lanes or bus bays.

[MolsonExport]

the loop might save 3 minutes of walking, but only if you don't mind waiting for 10 minutes. I would be more excited with a fixed trolley on this loop, maybe free at that.

[haljackey]

Ya bad call for London when they ripped up the streetcar tracks. This goes for most if not all cities that dug them out in favor of the bus.

[Pimpmasterdac]

I agree what's been said, closing the Kensington Bridge with no replacement/alternative would be big issue. The Queens Avenue bridge can be widened to 3 lanes but doesn't make up the previous lanes. It's pretty doubtful now that a new Riverside to King St. bridge will ever be constructed, and having the Kensington bridge link up to King St.from behind the old Courthouse would fly in the face of the proposed beach..

While I hope the plan is implemented, I'm doubtful for 2 reasons. The BRT plan is contingent on senior levels of government forking over $100s of millions to establish the system. London is quite low on the totem pole and unless the Wynne Liberals raise the HST 1% province wide, which will go over as well as a kick in the balls, there's not going to be money for it. If no money comes then its DOA.

As well major land expropriations will have to occur along stretches or Wellington, Richmond and Oxford, many more that a proposed ring road would've required in the 1960-70s, for the plan to move forward. NIMBYs along the route will make a stink, could derail the plan even if the money is there.

Hope to see it implemented though, change is needed!

[haljackey]

I always thought Ontario would increase sales tax once the feds lowered it. We used to pay 15% (7 GST 8 PST) and I thought it would remain 15% (5 GST 10 PST).

With the nickel now the lowest form of (hard) currency, it's another reason to argue everything should end in a 5. The Liberals would shoot themselves in the foot with any tax increase however.

[ssiguy]

While I agree that the money is an issue, I think it now doable financially then it probably ever has been.

As I stated earlier, all major Ontario cities have been offered big bucks by Queen's Park and even Ottawa for their respective rapid transit systems and London is the only one that hasn't and I think that has far more to do with London not presenting a cohesive plan in the first place.

If London had this plan ready it should have presented it to Queen's Park the very same day as Kitchener did..................it would have been impossible to yes to one and no to the other. London talking about senior level help for future BRT is a non-starter until you have the details in place. Senior level governments don't hand over money to be swell guys but for ribbon cutting ceremonies and any benefit after that is nice but the primary reason is political. That is one of the benefits of this plan, it could be awarded and finished within a government 4 year mandate. When governments fork over money they want to get all the political mileage out of it as humanely possible.

With Wayne thinking about actually increasing taxes to fund transit and all the other cities getting their piece of the pie, the financial prospects have never looked better.

As far as the idea that London being "off the political radar", I think that too has greatly change. London, both provincially and federally is very much a middle of the road landscape. Middle of the road voters are the the ones that both Wynne and Harper are going to court in the next election as they represent the most important voter base in the country.........swing voters.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

While I agree that the money is an issue, I think it now doable financially then it probably ever has been.

As I stated earlier, all major Ontario cities have been offered big bucks by Queen's Park and even Ottawa for their respective rapid transit systems and London is the only one that hasn't and I think that has far more to do with London not presenting a cohesive plan in the first place.

If London had this plan ready it should have presented it to Queen's Park the very same day as Kitchener did..................it would have been impossible to yes to one and no to the other. London talking about senior level help for future BRT is a non-starter until you have the details in place. Senior level governments don't hand over money to be swell guys but for ribbon cutting ceremonies and any benefit after that is nice but the primary reason is political. That is one of the benefits of this plan, it could be awarded and finished within a government 4 year mandate. When governments fork over money they want to get all the political mileage out of it as humanely possible.

With Wayne thinking about actually increasing taxes to fund transit and all the other cities getting their piece of the pie, the financial prospects have never looked better.

As far as the idea that London being "off the political radar", I think that too has greatly change. London, both provincially and federally is very much a middle of the road landscape. Middle of the road voters are the the ones that both Wynne and Harper are going to court in the next election as they represent the most important voter base in the country.........swing voters.

I completely agree with everything you said. Although I think this plan is pretty vanilla considering what other cities are doing, I'm happy to see London finally moving forward. Just please tell me that London doesn't propose any more "park and ride" facilities 2 blocks from downtown.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Senior level governments don't hand over money to be swell guys but for ribbon cutting ceremonies and any benefit after that is nice but the primary reason is political. That is one of the benefits of this plan, it could be awarded and finished within a government 4 year mandate. When governments fork over money they want to get all the political mileage out of it as humanely possible.

With Wayne thinking about actually increasing taxes to fund transit and all the other cities getting their piece of the pie, the financial prospects have never looked better.

As far as the idea that London being "off the political radar", I think that too has greatly change. London, both provincially and federally is very much a middle of the road landscape. Middle of the road voters are the the ones that both Wynne and Harper are going to court in the next election as they represent the most important voter base in the country.........swing voters.

I take back a bit of London not having the clout the get a BRT system. There's a provincial by-election coming up soon in London-West since Chris Bentley resigned. Last year's by-election in Guelph, the Liberals threw around money like no tomorrow, promising to build a new freeway Highway 7 from Conestoga Expressway to Highway 6 which I believe is ~$250 million. If council can get its act together and approve the plan, perhaps they can lobby to get senior levels of government to fund it.

Only issue, if the funds are there, is selling it to those that will be affected. Hopefully London can ram it through regardless, would be a great if it becomes a reality!

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Ya bad call for London when they ripped up the streetcar tracks. This goes for most if not all cities that dug them out in favor of the bus.

To be fair, though, traffic patterns shifted significantly over the past 70-odd years since the streetcar tracks were ripped up. London would have needed significant capital investment to upgrade a system that, realistically, offers no material advantages over buses in a city this size. Streetcars do, however, have psychological advantages; they're less déclassé than buses or Chevrolet Cavaliers, and people like to locate next to a physically fixed line that can only be changed at great expense. I kinda wish at least one of the old lines had survived.

[swimmer_spe]

Anyone know if the current status of this?

[Pimpmasterdac]

Still the tentative plan. London will begin full EAs this year to determine the final routing of the North-South & East-West routes, which will include the downtown BRT plan with it as they overlap here.