Should we divide Canada Day into two separate events?

[Metro-One]

I love Canada, even with her historical mistakes, and I love Canada Day.

While it is important to reflect upon and never forget the mistakes and atrocities of the past and the problems that still linger / exist today, it is equally important to celebrate all the sacrifices and hard work that went into building our country to what it is today, and that contemporary Canada is one of the most equal and safest societies that has ever existed.

Reconciliation needs to be done, but I am also very proud of my ancestors who have toiled away for generations, from plowing their fields in Saskatchewan while living in squalor (My Grandmother’s family was Swedish, and lived near Swift Current in a small shack on a farm with no electricity or plumbing. My great grandmother died during child birth and my Grandma at just over 10 had to then act as the mother to her sisters and brothers. The baby was given away and only in their 50s did they find each other again) to logging in the wilderness of BC (Grandfather’s family was Italian, had to work hard labor jobs in forestry and the ship yards, and fought in WW2).

Mature people can do both on the same day, show their pride and love for their homeland while also recognizing the mistakes, but today fewer and fewer seem to be able to do this.

The endless lectures on how terrible we are while people try to have some fun with those in their community can get nauseating and can actually lead many to become less sympathetic.

That’s why I propose this!

July 1st is “Canada Pride Day”. This day is only for positive celebration. It’s a day to feel good about one’s country and heritage and all the accomplishments. No Debbie downers.

July 2nd is the hang over, “Canada Reflection Day”. A day to recognize the injustices that have also occurred and to look towards reconciliation.

That’s my idea, what do you think?

Maybe this system should be adopted by all nations since all nations and cultures and even tribes have blood on their hands in one way or another.

[Architype]

That's quite a bit of patriotic compartmentalization to take on. But we seem to do that with holidays all the time anyway.

[White Pine]

Nobody in the world does this. But maybe it will give the twitter debbie downers a reason to shut up on Canada Day.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Architype

That's quite a bit of patriotic compartmentalization to take on. But we seem to do that with holidays all the time anyway.

Well as I said those who can handle nuance and reflect upon both sides of history and nationalism on the same day can have fun and celebrate Canada Day while also recognizing and taking time to think about the negatives, but as I said that skill is fading fast today so for me this seems like the only solution now.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by White Pine

Nobody in the world does this. But maybe it will give the twitter debbie downers a reason to shut up on Canada Day.

Bingo.

Victoria has already cancelled their Canada Day celebrations entirely.

For me that’s not a good answer.

[ue]

The very foundation of Canada is illegitimate - based on broken treaties and stolen land. I do not see what exactly there is to celebrate. Your family in Saskatchewan was actively engaging in settler colonialism and benefiting from the structures of racism and dispossession used against Indigenous groups in the area. While they may have been nice people who worked hard and had struggles, there is no denying that their very presence in Saskatchewan was due to injustice. There are obviously nuances to these situations - like I said it can be true that your family was full of good, hard-working people while also them benefiting from harm done to Indigenous peoples. But at the same time, you can see how 'celebrating' this can be a bit tone deaf to those who've been dispossessed.

The endless lectures on how terrible we are while people try to have some fun with those in their community can get nauseating and can actually lead many to become less sympathetic.

Is it really that "endless"? This stuff has only been part of mainstream discourse for a very short period, far shorter than the cycles of intergenerational trauma and poverty faced by Indigenous peoples. Complaining about being confronted with these issues because it's basically annoying is both insensitive and indicative of your privilege. If at the end of the day you can go back to a lifestyle that is relatively comfortable and built on the backs of your ancestors who engaged in the process of Canada stealing land and just find this all a bit "nauseating" to hear about dead children, boil water advisories, destruction of old growth forests on unceded land, then I'm sorry I don't care. The issues are far greater than worrying about your feelings on the matter.

This doesn't even get into the injustices faced by other racialized folks, poor people, members of the queer community, etc.

However, I do know that SSP members and I don't really get along when it comes to these sorts of things so rest assured I will refrain from the conversation going forward. I just wanted to chime in with a different perspective.

[Metro-One]

Thanks for providing the perfect example of what I was talking about... oh wait, your serious!

That type of nihilism actually doesn’t encourage others to unite in your causes, many of which are real, but instead just makes people roll their eyes. It seriously comes off as someone who is suffering from depression and has chosen this avenue to exercise their demons (trust me, having suffered from depression for decades I know how it focuses in on a topic and can make someone nihilistic).

If you seriously can’t see anything to celebrate about Canada, well then I don’t think you will find personal comfort in any past or present nation, community or tribe. Every existing country today can be solely interpreted through its atrocities. Indonesia, Malaysia etc... weren’t always Muslim... Taiwan wasn’t always the Han people... The Turks sure got around... Them pesky Romans sure did a colonial number on Northern Europe... Modern Day Egyptians largely aren’t the same as those there thousands of years ago... Serioisly the list could never stop. Did you know that the last true war fought in North America was actually between two native tribes on the North Coast of BC? The Haida Gwaii were actual lit quite notorious for invading other tribe’s villages and capturing slaves. Therefore should they no longer be proud of their tribe’s heritage?

And let’s not talk about gay rights, woman’s rights, income equality, etc... in other places around the world.

So does everyone have to hate their cultural background / home country now?

Is it wrong for the Japanese to have national pride? Seeing their gender equality and acceptance of homosexuality is less than Canada, and of course their colonization during WW2, especially in China and Korea, and their displacement of Japan’s natives (that’s right!) long ago?

What a sad existence.

Oh, and my grandparents were the peasants you seem to be a savior for now, and Italians were on the bad side of the racial list in those days for discrimination, yet that doesn’t stop me from loving my country! Also the rapid fire systems of information we have today, well, they just didn’t really exist back then, so I am sure poor migrants weren’t as caught up to date as you are on your social justice movements today. Just some context people should keep in mind when judging those from over 100 years ago.

[acottawa]

A few thoughts.

1. Unless you're Icelandic (which had no human settlement until the middle ages and the "settler" group is still the majority of the population), almost every square centimeter of the surface of the earth is on "stolen land" in the sense that ethnic groups displaced or replaced different ethnic groups. This includes the groups referred to as indigenous, who mostly stole/displaced the land from other ethnic groups. For example, at first contact with Europeans (French missionaries) most of what is now Southern Ontario was settled by the Huron peoples (which is why we have a Lake Huron, for example). By the time the English showed up a century later, various other indigenous groups had displaced the Huron, often by force. Any Huron/Wyandot people you find now are likely to live North of Quebec City or in the U.S. Yet for some reason we don't expect Mohawks to note that they are on the unceded land of the Huron people when they make their speeches. The same is true of other continents, where the Indo-Europeans, Bantu, etc. displaced previous residents.

2. Imagine if we applied this standard to any other holiday? If Christians or Muslims had the Eids or Christmas cancelled because of longstanding support for slavery, if Lunar New Year celebrations had to be cancelled because of past wrongdoings of the Han, Vietnamese, etc.

3. Meanwhile, for an "illegitimate" country, things are pretty good according to any reasonable comparative measures; and in fact large numbers of people seem to want to relocate here, despite all of the horrible things Canada had done and the apparently horrible treatment it apparently inflicts on most of its citizens.

4. Obviously some horrible things happened in the past. It is important to recognize these atrocities and commemorate them and provide compensation where appropriate, but I think this weird medieval worldview of perpetual atonement is unproductive and will do way more harm than good.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Thanks for providing the perfect example of what I was talking about... oh wait, your serious!

That type of nihilism actually doesn’t encourage others to unite in your causes, many of which are real, but instead just makes people roll their eyes. It seriously comes off as someone who is suffering from depression and has chosen this avenue to exercise their demons (trust me, having suffered from depression for decades I know how it focuses in on a topic and can make someone nihilistic).

I'm sorry, are you seriously suggesting that people who are aware of and would like to dismantle abusive systems are merely choosing to be depressed?

If you seriously can’t see anything to celebrate about Canada, well then I don’t think you will find personal comfort in any past or present nation, community or tribe. Every existing country today can be solely interpreted through its atrocities. Indonesia, Malaysia etc... weren’t always Muslim... Taiwan wasn’t always the Han people... The Turks sure got around... Them pesky Romans sure did a colonial number on Northern Europe... Modern Day Egyptians largely aren’t the same as those there thousands of years ago... Serioisly the list could never stop. Did you know that the last true war fought in North America was actually between two native tribes on the North Coast of BC? The Haida Gwaii were actual lit quite notorious for invading other tribe’s villages and capturing slaves. Therefore should they no longer be proud of their tribe’s heritage?

That's great... anyway if you look at what I said, I did say there is nuance to these things. Just because other civilizations did bad stuff does not make Canada doing bad stuff ok. But I am very tired of Canada cleverly branding itself as this benevolent polite nation when foundationally, that isn't really the case. It's very akin to the Japanese rebrand of being 'kawaii' after their previous atrocities during the Second World War. I think a lot of the issues with Canada are swept under the rug, so I don't see why there is harm in bringing it into the spotlight.

And let’s not talk about gay rights, woman’s rights, income equality, etc... in other places around the world.

Depends on what you mean by gay rights. The mainstream generally sees marriage as the be all end all. But, sure, you could say that, generally, a gay man will have an easier time in Vancouver than Nairobi. That doesn't mean things are necessarily amazing either. There is still a lot of misogyny and inequality re: women's rights as well, even if it isn't as extreme as other countries. As for income equality, well, the biggest corporations have profited into the trillions over the pandemic while workers are faced with less opportunity and increasingly precarious situations.

It's easy to say "well we've solved this issue" because gay men can get married now. It isn't that simple and ignoring ongoing issues because you're simply tired of hearing about it is unhelpful.

So does everyone have to hate their cultural background / home country now?

I mean, nationalism is bad. See: the Nazis.

Is it wrong for the Japanese to have national pride? Seeing their gender equality and acceptance of homosexuality is less than Canada, and of course their colonization during WW2, especially in China and Korea, and their displacement of Japan’s natives (that’s right!) long ago?

I don't think it's good. It also requires a suspension of disbelief in the idea that everyone within arbitrary borders is somehow part of a shared, imagined community based on the same beliefs, especially in a country as nebulous as Canada.

What a sad existence.

I'm sorry - where did I indicate I needed your sarcastic pity?

Oh, and my grandparents were the peasants you seem to be a savior for now, and Italians were on the bad side of the racial list in those days for discrimination, yet that doesn’t stop me from loving my country!

You do realize that there was a racial hierarchy, wherein certain European ethnicities were below others, but were still above Indigenous, mixed race, Black, Asian, and anyone not from Europe basically, right? There was a very deliberate coordination of settlement in the Prairies spearheaded by Clifford Sifton in the late 19th century to bring in so-called "lesser" Europeans (notably Slavs) because there weren't enough WASPs that wanted to settle in the Prairies despite massive incentives (see Dominion Lands Act). They turned to these other Europeans to take up land and stake out Canada's claim to the territory, forcing out First Nations and Metis communities. Even if a specific settler to Canada wasn't aware of the various processes underway and the ideological structures underpinning it all, that doesn't mean they weren't happening and were not benefiting from such a system. Immigrants were specifically utilized so Canada could enforce its claim on the land despite Indigenous groups not agreeing to it and despite there being a treaty in place (on the Prairies, at least).

Also the rapid fire systems of information we have today, well, they just didn’t really exist back then, so I am sure poor migrants weren’t as caught up to date as you are on your social justice movements today. Just some context people should keep in mind when judging those from over 100 years ago.

I'm not judging your family. I'm merely stating the facts of the matter. Again there is nuance to these things. Even if they weren't aware of the processes underway, that doesn't mean they weren't happening and weren't benefiting from such processes.

But, like, enjoy your mountie pride I guess?

[SignalHillHiker]

Here, we literally already do.

July 1 is Memorial Day in Newfoundland and Labrador, commemorated in most of the same ways as Remembrance Day in mainland Canada - special ceremonies at the National War Memorial and various other ones throughout the province and around the world, military parades, Royal visits, etc.

In practice, that means the morning of July 1 is serious and sombre.



By mid-afternoon, the tone starts to shift, you'll see more maple leaf-themed outfits, there's a festive mood that congregates at Quidi Vidi Lake (family activities, fireworks) and George Street (a grand old time). On the radio call-in shows there's a mix of "This is ONLY Memorial Day for me!", "Confederation has been great for us, I love being Canadian!", etc. Curmudgeons gather at The Republic and Bannerman Park to grudgingly enjoy the holiday. It's a mess, but it all works beautifully.

*****

As for shining a light on Indigenous issues - we're trying something different this year. St. John's Days (not really historic, just more of an annual series of events similar to Open Doors days here and elsewhere) have been cancelled to fund National Indigenous Peoples Day activities instead. We'll see how it goes - I'm hopeful.

We've also renamed Discovery Day (June 24, formerly our national day) temporarily to June Holiday. The new name will be announced soon. I suspect we'll follow Canada's lead and choose simply Newfoundland and Labrador Day. It's the implication the place was undiscovered that was the issue with the previous name among our Indigenous groups, not so much the commemoration of the event itself.

[Truenorth00]

I'll offer a practical viewpoint. I'm military. I don't support the idea of Remembrance Day being a holiday. It just turns it into another boozefest holiday like the rest. If you had July 1st and 2nd as holidays, how much national reflection do you think would be going on?

I suggest that we make Indigenous People's Day a national holiday. And like Remembrance Day, schools and media can use the run up to educate. Hopefully, this also means that we start to celebrate Indigenous culture more in Canada.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by ue

I'm sorry, are you seriously suggesting that people who are aware of and would like to dismantle abusive systems are merely choosing to be depressed?



That's great... anyway if you look at what I said, I did say there is nuance to these things. Just because other civilizations did bad stuff does not make Canada doing bad stuff ok. But I am very tired of Canada cleverly branding itself as this benevolent polite nation when foundationally, that isn't really the case. It's very akin to the Japanese rebrand of being 'kawaii' after their previous atrocities during the Second World War. I think a lot of the issues with Canada are swept under the rug, so I don't see why there is harm in bringing it into the spotlight.




Depends on what you mean by gay rights. The mainstream generally sees marriage as the be all end all. But, sure, you could say that, generally, a gay man will have an easier time in Vancouver than Nairobi. That doesn't mean things are necessarily amazing either. There is still a lot of misogyny and inequality re: women's rights as well, even if it isn't as extreme as other countries. As for income equality, well, the biggest corporations have profited into the trillions over the pandemic while workers are faced with less opportunity and increasingly precarious situations.

It's easy to say "well we've solved this issue" because gay men can get married now. It isn't that simple and ignoring ongoing issues because you're simply tired of hearing about it is unhelpful.



I mean, nationalism is bad. See: the Nazis.



I don't think it's good. It also requires a suspension of disbelief in the idea that everyone within arbitrary borders is somehow part of a shared, imagined community based on the same beliefs, especially in a country as nebulous as Canada.



I'm sorry - where did I indicate I needed your sarcastic pity?



You do realize that there was a racial hierarchy, wherein certain European ethnicities were below others, but were still above Indigenous, mixed race, Black, Asian, and anyone not from Europe basically, right? There was a very deliberate coordination of settlement in the Prairies spearheaded by Clifford Sifton in the late 19th century to bring in so-called "lesser" Europeans (notably Slavs) because there weren't enough WASPs that wanted to settle in the Prairies despite massive incentives (see Dominion Lands Act). They turned to these other Europeans to take up land and stake out Canada's claim to the territory, forcing out First Nations and Metis communities. Even if a specific settler to Canada wasn't aware of the various processes underway and the ideological structures underpinning it all, that doesn't mean they weren't happening and were not benefiting from such a system. Immigrants were specifically utilized so Canada could enforce its claim on the land despite Indigenous groups not agreeing to it and despite there being a treaty in place (on the Prairies, at least).



I'm not judging your family. I'm merely stating the facts of the matter. Again there is nuance to these things. Even if they weren't aware of the processes underway, that doesn't mean they weren't happening and weren't benefiting from such processes.

But, like, enjoy your mountie pride I guess?

Just will have to agree to disagree.

I feel that you have set the bar so high that there is no place in the world that can, or ever will, meet your conditions.

I am add I feel that your approach perfectly illustrates how the progressive left has changed over the last couple decades, from a positive and inclusive approach to a divisive negative approach.

I will enjoy my Canada, thank you very much!

And I want my children to grow up being proud of their Japanese and Canadian heritage (and Italian and Swedish).

PS, Italian wasn’t exactly considered “white” in the old days, hence the very prominent Italian ghettos, but whatever...

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Here, we literally already do.

July 1 is Memorial Day in Newfoundland and Labrador, commemorated in most of the same ways as Remembrance Day in mainland Canada - special ceremonies at the National War Memorial and various other ones throughout the province and around the world, military parades, Royal visits, etc.

In practice, that means the morning of July 1 is serious and sombre.



By mid-afternoon, the tone starts to shift, you'll see more maple leaf-themed outfits, there's a festive mood that congregates at Quidi Vidi Lake (family activities, fireworks) and George Street (a grand old time). On the radio call-in shows there's a mix of "This is ONLY Memorial Day for me!", "Confederation has been great for us, I love being Canadian!", etc. Curmudgeons gather at The Republic and Bannerman Park to grudgingly enjoy the holiday. It's a mess, but it all works beautifully.

*****

As for shining a light on Indigenous issues - we're trying something different this year. St. John's Days (not really historic, just more of an annual series of events similar to Open Doors days here and elsewhere) have been cancelled to fund National Indigenous Peoples Day activities instead. We'll see how it goes - I'm hopeful.

We've also renamed Discovery Day (June 24, formerly our national day) temporarily to June Holiday. The new name will be announced soon. I suspect we'll follow Canada's lead and choose simply Newfoundland and Labrador Day. It's the implication the place was undiscovered that was the issue with the previous name among our Indigenous groups, not so much the commemoration of the event itself.

I actually like the sounds of the Newfoundland approach to Canada Day, nice to see you guys can still balance the two halves (for now...)

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'll offer a practical viewpoint. I'm military. I don't support the idea of Remembrance Day being a holiday. It just turns it into another boozefest holiday like the rest. If you had July 1st and 2nd as holidays, how much national reflection do you think would be going on?

I suggest that we make Indigenous People's Day a national holiday. And like Remembrance Day, schools and media can use the run up to educate. Hopefully, this also means that we start to celebrate Indigenous culture more in Canada.

I always wanted a more melting pot of an approach to Indigenous culture in Canada, where local indigenous languages and traditions are taught in school to all, but sadly that ship has sailed, now the purity mob would just scream “cultural appropriation” and some other buzz word nonsense.

So fuck it these days. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'll offer a practical viewpoint. I'm military. I don't support the idea of Remembrance Day being a holiday. It just turns it into another boozefest holiday like the rest. If you had July 1st and 2nd as holidays, how much national reflection do you think would be going on?

I suggest that we make Indigenous People's Day a national holiday. And like Remembrance Day, schools and media can use the run up to educate. Hopefully, this also means that we start to celebrate Indigenous culture more in Canada.

I am not in the military but I've never gotten any impression that Nov. 11 is a boozefest holiday. Perhaps it is for you guys but it definitely isn't for the rest of us.

I agree with your suggestion about making June 21 a national holiday. It's probably already in the works.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I actually like the sounds of the Newfoundland approach to Canada Day, nice to see you guys can still balance the two halves (for now...)

I can see that, though the first part of July 1 in Newfoundland, while sober and serious, isn't really about collective guilt in a mea culpa kind of way.
:
In a way, it's still about the greatness of Newfoundlanders: the brave, valourous ones who made the ultimate sacrifice.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A few thoughts.

1. Unless you're Icelandic (which had no human settlement until the middle ages and the "settler" group is still the majority of the population), almost every square centimeter of the surface of the earth is on "stolen land" in the sense that ethnic groups displaced or replaced different ethnic groups. This includes the groups referred to as indigenous, who mostly stole/displaced the land from other ethnic groups. For example, at first contact with Europeans (French missionaries) most of what is now Southern Ontario was settled by the Huron peoples (which is why we have a Lake Huron, for example). By the time the English showed up a century later, various other indigenous groups had displaced the Huron, often by force. Any Huron/Wyandot people you find now are likely to live North of Quebec City or in the U.S. Yet for some reason we don't expect Mohawks to note that they are on the unceded land of the Huron people when they make their speeches. The same is true of other continents, where the Indo-Europeans, Bantu, etc. displaced previous residents.

2. Imagine if we applied this standard to any other holiday? If Christians or Muslims had the Eids or Christmas cancelled because of longstanding support for slavery, if Lunar New Year celebrations had to be cancelled because of past wrongdoings of the Han, Vietnamese, etc.

3. Meanwhile, for an "illegitimate" country, things are pretty good according to any reasonable comparative measures; and in fact large numbers of people seem to want to relocate here, despite all of the horrible things Canada had done and the apparently horrible treatment it apparently inflicts on most of its citizens.

4. Obviously some horrible things happened in the past. It is important to recognize these atrocities and commemorate them and provide compensation where appropriate, but I think this weird medieval worldview of perpetual atonement is unproductive and will do way more harm than good.

Well said..Kudos for having the Kahunas to outline what I've also felt, but never did especially given the disturbing current events. Indigenous people also STOLE land, committed genocide, and also took slaves even through the age of discovery. They just did it amongst enemy tribes, as well as with settlers, albeit on a smaller scale. It was a really brutal time for the world all around. Hurons are a good example of a nation that was slaughtered by other First Nations like the Iroquois. Not taking away the atrocities committed by Europeans, but First Nations' hands aren't clean either. They all just faced a new common European enemy after fighting and committing atrocities against each other for centuries.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not in the military but I've never gotten any impression that Nov. 11 is a boozefest holiday. Perhaps it is for you guys but it definitely isn't for the rest of us.

My brain cut off my post. Sorry. I meant like in the US. In my time there, Memorial Day (May) and Veterans Day (November) were more about getting drunk and shopping than they were about remembering the men and women who sacrificed for the country. This is better in Canada with Remembrance Day not being a holiday.

The reason I think Indigenous People's Day should be a holiday is slightly different. First, we need to go beyond reconciliation to celebration. That's really the only way First Nations will be truly valued. So maybe there's documentaries about residential schools on TV and some educational events about First Nations history in school. And then we all make it a tradition to eat First Nations foods on June 21st. Or something like that. Appreciating them has to mean more than just dwelling on their injuries in perpetuity.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Just will have to agree to disagree.

I feel that you have set the bar so high that there is no place in the world that can, or ever will, meet your conditions.

One has to wonder if that isn't the end game: to saddle the world (or at least part of it) with a kind of morose, extreme collective guilt.

Of course, some cultures and countries seem to be exempted (or at least conveniently overlooked), perhaps under the often dubious premise that they've suffered enough already.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

Depends on what you mean by gay rights. The mainstream generally sees marriage as the be all end all. But, sure, you could say that, generally, a gay man will have an easier time in Vancouver than Nairobi. That doesn't mean things are necessarily amazing either. There is still a lot of misogyny and inequality re: women's rights as well, even if it isn't as extreme as other countries. As for income equality, well, the biggest corporations have profited into the trillions over the pandemic while workers are faced with less opportunity and increasingly precarious situations.

It's easy to say "well we've solved this issue" because gay men can get married now. It isn't that simple and ignoring ongoing issues because you're simply tired of hearing about it is unhelpful.

Do gay people even complain about Canada specifically as a "country" and a place to live? I don't think I've ever heard this.

The truth is the world in general can be a tough place to be gay. Nowhere is perfect but Canada is clearly one of the better places to be gay. I think 99.99% of gay people recognize that.

The same can be said for women.

This was such a weird tangent to take this thread on.