First Nations in Canada

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Fortunately for Francophones in this country, they dominated population-wise in a certain portion of the country and were able to retain (albeit imperfectly for much of their history) much of their culture on their own terms. They even had a say at the top leadership levels of the country for much of its history (see: Wilfrid Laurier, Louis St-Laurent, etc.)

Even the British - not exactly the most delicate of masters - had to yield some concessions.

Indeed, Quebec now determines its own fate, mostly. To the point of having the option of telling the rest of the country to go pound sand, as they nearly did in 1995.

The Indigenous peoples of Canada were far too thinly spread and dissociated to mount anywhere near as effective as a campaign for their rights. So, of course, the government ran roughshod over them.

The degree of cultural genocide matters.

Aside: Do brand names count for translation purposes? I seem to recall 'Canadian Tire' stores in Quebec, not "Pneu Canadien".

Brand Names do not need to be translated.

Part of the problem for indigenous peoples is that they are often unable to speak with one voice. There are times when the same community have difficulties forming a consensus.

We are also seeing bandwagoners like BLM who sometimes work at cross-purposes to the indigenous cause. They should focus on their own issues.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Part of the problem for indigenous peoples is that they are often unable to speak with one voice. There are times when the same community have difficulties forming a consensus.

We are also seeing bandwagoners like BLM who sometimes work at cross-purposes to the indigenous cause. They should focus on their own issues.

Indeed.

People refer to 'the Natives' as if the Cree, the Inuit and the Squamish, et al, are one homogeneous entity.

Um, no. They've similarities, but they're hardly one people. It's like looking at a map of Europe and just assuming everyone there would be 'the same' because they all kinda live in the same area.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Fortunately for Francophones in this country, they dominated population-wise in a certain portion of the country and were able to retain (albeit imperfectly for much of their history) much of their culture on their own terms. They even had a say at the top leadership levels of the country for much of its history (see: Wilfrid Laurier, Louis St-Laurent, etc.)

Even the British - not exactly the most delicate of masters - had to yield some concessions.

Indeed, Quebec now determines its own fate, mostly. To the point of having the option of telling the rest of the country to go pound sand, as they nearly did in 1995.

The Indigenous peoples of Canada were far too thinly spread and dissociated to mount anywhere near as effective as a campaign for their rights. So, of course, the government ran roughshod over them.

The degree of cultural genocide matters.

Aside: Do brand names count for translation purposes? I seem to recall 'Canadian Tire' stores in Quebec, not "Pneu Canadien".

Well stated.

I think another key point is that, some 300 years ago, France and England were at war, and both trying to conquer what would become Canada at the same time. It's complicated, like most things, but essentially England became victorious and France was the defeated nation.

I don't think it's the same to equate France's situation with the situation of the indigenous peoples, who were already occupying the land and living simple lives without the benefit of technology from the industrial revolution in Europe. In many ways the indigenous and their culture became casualties of this war/invasion, and in many cases their ways of life were changed forever.

Not equal by any means, and one has only to look at how Quebec has thrived and remained powerful, in contrast to most indigenous communities, to see the evidence.

As far as cultural genocide goes, I find it hard to see how Quebec has been influenced by the outside world any more than any other part of Canada. Cultures are always in a constant process of change and evolution, and therefore in my ignorance I don't understand why Quebec should have expectations that their culture should be frozen in time any more than any others. However, this thread isn't about Quebec's woes, which is why I mentioned in another post that perhaps Quebec's grievances should be discussed in a separate thread.

[casper]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Brand Names do not need to be translated.

Part of the problem for indigenous peoples is that they are often unable to speak with one voice. There are times when the same community have difficulties forming a consensus.

We are also seeing bandwagoners like BLM who sometimes work at cross-purposes to the indigenous cause. They should focus on their own issues.

Should they speak with one voice?

Ultimately at the end of the day self governance means a municipal type government. The mechanics will be different. The government may have some unique powers however at the end of the day that is what we are talking about. There is no reason to believe that should be the same across the country or even within a given province.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by casper

Ultimately at the end of the day self governance means a municipal type government. The mechanics will be different. The government may have some unique powers however at the end of the day that is what we are talking about. There is no reason to believe that should be the same across the country or even within a given province.

I agree, although aboriginal government would be a step up from normal municipal governments, with some powers, federally devolved, which would give them some near provincial level powers (health, education, welfare, policing, quasi-judicial).

It will be an entirely new paradigm, which will result in some jockeying between provincial and aboriginal governments regarding jurisdictional authority. It will be a bit of a dogs breakfast until things get sorted out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Fortunately for Francophones in this country, they dominated population-wise in a certain portion of the country and were able to retain (albeit imperfectly for much of their history) much of their culture on their own terms. They even had a say at the top leadership levels of the country for much of its history (see: Wilfrid Laurier, Louis St-Laurent, etc.)

Even the British - not exactly the most delicate of masters - had to yield some concessions.

Indeed, Quebec now determines its own fate, mostly. To the point of having the option of telling the rest of the country to go pound sand, as they nearly did in 1995.

The Indigenous peoples of Canada were far too thinly spread and dissociated to mount anywhere near as effective as a campaign for their rights. So, of course, the government ran roughshod over them.

The degree of cultural genocide matters.

Aside: Do brand names count for translation purposes? I seem to recall 'Canadian Tire' stores in Quebec, not "Pneu Canadien".

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Well stated.

I think another key point is that, some 300 years ago, France and England were at war, and both trying to conquer what would become Canada at the same time. It's complicated, like most things, but essentially England became victorious and France was the defeated nation.

I don't think it's the same to equate France's situation with the situation of the indigenous peoples, who were already occupying the land and living simple lives without the benefit of technology from the industrial revolution in Europe. In many ways the indigenous and their culture became casualties of this war/invasion, and in many cases their ways of life were changed forever.

Not equal by any means, and one has only to look at how Quebec has thrived and remained powerful, in contrast to most indigenous communities, to see the evidence.

As far as cultural genocide goes, I find it hard to see how Quebec has been influenced by the outside world any more than any other part of Canada. Cultures are always in a constant process of change and evolution, and therefore in my ignorance I don't understand why Quebec should have expectations that their culture should be frozen in time any more than any others. However, this thread isn't about Quebec's woes, which is why I mentioned in another post that perhaps Quebec's grievances should be discussed in a separate thread.

Thanks guys for your responses.

I don't necessarily agree that it's a good equivalency, or that most of your counter-arguments are wrong.

Just that it's a safe bet we'll be hearing more chatter when it comes to this in the very near future.

As I've said before, I am a bit skeptical of the societal trend of letting every single group or person define unilaterally and without parameters what is intolerable and ignominous, and that everyone outside the in-group needs to STFU about it.

I'd apply this logic to my own primary in-group which is francophones. (Even though I sometimes post things to the contrary - to be provocative.)

But that doesn't mean I think francophones in general will exercise the same restraint.

[MolsonExport]

Back in the day, in Quebec, Canadian firms had to drop the 's whereas American firms did not.
Thus, Eaton (Eaton's) but McDonald's.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, some debates are tiring based on the importance of what is being discussed and the lack of appropriate respect paid to that by some participants. No one wants to argue with Drunk Uncle ad nauseam.

It does come down to differences of opinion but we all pick and choose who we find worthy of our effort. You don’t discuss politics with a toddler. The guy blaring out religious condemnation on a street corner is usually best ignored. These are extreme examples but the concept is similar.

I almost forgot the "draw comparisons to oppressed Francophones" part!

Liojack "just get over what we did to your parents/grandparents already!"
SJW "you can't possibly understand..."
Liojack "well then i'm oppressed too because Air Canada gave me Sprite instead of 7up. Don't question my LiVeD eXpErIeNcE"

[JHikka]

How about those Indigenous kids we keep digging up.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by JHikka

How about those Indigenous kids we keep digging up.

Well, the Feds just grabbed the lowest of the low hanging fruit. Guess they can pat themselves on the back now!

Indigenous people can now reclaim traditional names on their passports and other ID

CBC

[Truenorth00]

We're up to 572 kids found apparently....

https://twitter.com/AndersenAngus/st...206597127?s=19

[giallo]

What the kind of house of horrors was the Catholic church running at these schools?

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by giallo

What the kind of house of horrors was the Catholic church running at these schools?

This isn't a revelation. The Catholic Church has a long history of having a particular disregard for human life. It would seem to be a confluence of a theological focus on the after life, paternalistic arrogance, and institutional indifference. It still suffers from the rot (just look at how they continue to not address rife pedophilia within the clergy) but is at least tempered by a society that is significantly less deferential to its authority and influence.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We're up to 572 kids found apparently....

https://twitter.com/AndersenAngus/st...206597127?s=19

These are other than those identified by TRC? How were they located?

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

These are other than those identified by TRC? How were they located?

There are a lot of known locations, the TRC and other authorities did not recognize the information.

I'm expecting quite a number in Alberta the next few months.

Like Kamloops, people know where they are, they just need verification.

As for the Catholic Church, it wasn't just the Catholic Church but others as well. Anglican was also running some of the schools. but there were also some religious leaders in the past that have a good reputation with FN.

[Pavlov]

Kingston City Council has decided to move the statute of Sir John A MacDonald prominently displayed (currently) at an entrance to City Park (between downtown and the Queen's campus).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...tery-1.6068857

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

Kingston City Council has decided to move the statute of Sir John A MacDonald prominently displayed (currently) at an entrance to City Park (between downtown and the Queen's campus).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...tery-1.6068857

There is also a pretty major boulevard and exit off the 401 that bears his name there.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is also a pretty major boulevard and exit off the 401 that bears his name there.

Kingston is also home to Bellevue House National Historic Site (where Sir John A. MacDonald and his family resided for a few years). So far, there has not been much (any?) public discourse regarding either than street name or whether Parks Canada should be adding additional context to plaques ect at Bellevue House. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we start to have those conversations as well at some point in the near future.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

Kingston City Council has decided to move the statute of Sir John A MacDonald prominently displayed (currently) at an entrance to City Park (between downtown and the Queen's campus).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...tery-1.6068857

I remember back in 2013 that statue getting doused with red paint - and at the time it was dismissed as vandalism.

Several years later a pub named after him changed its name, and at the time it was highly controversial in the community.

[dreambrother808]

A pretty stark statistic that someone reminded me of this week: the odds of a child dying in a residential school were higher than that of a Canadian soldier dying in WWII (1 in 25 vs 1 in 26).

This was over the lifetime of the program, meanwhile during the early years the death rate was 50%.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/0...n_7491120.html