Downtown Subway

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

The only thing that technically makes the MAX slower is the stopping at stations....

This may be a stupid question, but has their ever been any real consideration to deleting some of the stops in Downtown Portland? Or possibly converting them to streetcar stops? What if Max trains skipped every other stop in Downtown, but a street car was added as a circulator to cover the missed stops?

just thinking outloud.

Also, who would object to deleting some stops? Landlords? Retail Users?

[MarkDaMan]

^Mostly lobbying by local businesses. The Kings Hill stop was added after heavy pressure from the MAC Club, yet unfortunately that platform isn't large enough for the crowds from Jeld-Wen so we have another stop a block away. There has been talk about moving the Library/Galleries stops back a few blocks. Pioneer Square is a given, Pioneer Place would fight tooth and nail if their stop was threatened. 3rd Ave stops serve several office towers and are heavily used. Oak is appropriately spaced. Skidmore Fountain and OTCT stops should be combined between the two. There was past resistance because the Saturday Market didn't want to lose their stop opening directly onto the market, that's not an issue anymore.

On the eastside the coliseum and convention center stops should be combined. The OCC doesn't want to lose their stop though as a stop a block closer to the river wouldn't open up to their front door. The 7th Ave and Lloyd stops should also be combined and located in a new plaza and tower built on a redeveloped DoubleTree garage.

I don't know how far up the chain the conversation has gone, but every once in awhile there are talks about a 32nd Ave stop.

[bvpcvm]

There's an interview (actually a series) with Neil McFarlane over on portlandtransport.com, and he addresses this question directly. Basically, yes, there has been talk of it, but there's always a constituency for every station. Plus, it costs money to remove stations.

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by MarkDaMan

^

I don't know how far up the chain the conversation has gone, but every once in awhile there are talks about a 32nd Ave stop.

That's my neck of the woods. The lack of a Max stop at 33rd essentially closes off a huge chunk of NE Portland to easy LR access. Sometimes I take the Max to Hollywood and track back to Irvington, but only in a pinch.

I'm only speculating here, but my sense is the neighborhood probably opposed it in the past. Maybe attitudes have changed. It would be a nice amenity.

[hat]

A stop there would be fantastic. Closer to 28th or 33rd? Here's another silly little drawing. Having a ped bridge like 42nd would start tying the neighborhoods together again.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/101004589@N07/10364093846/

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

This is an interesting blog post I read recently which directly touches on a bunch of issues discussed here.

I just took the MAX (Beaverton Central -> Goose Hollow) this morning for the first time in maybe 6 months and OMG what a clusterfuck it was. So many sections - not just where there are sharp curves - the train runs at about 10 mph for no discernable reason at all. Here's the thing: perceptions are important. When the train's going along 26 or 84 and cars are sailing by, you feel second class. I know, the MAX is supposed to be "the transit the middle class uses", and it's certainly nicer than the bus, but perception is that you're really wasting time. And if you're wasting time, maybe your time isn't all that important. In fact, maybe YOU'RE not all that important. Maybe during rush hour it's a different story. And I'm sure that past Beaverton you get less of that feeling, since you're not paralleling traffic and it's a straight shot anyway. But according to that blog post, LA's system has practically zero sharp curves and has heavy ridership partly due to that - because it's fast, or at least seems to be. (It doesn't help that I hadn't been to The Round in years and was surprised at what a barren wasteland it is. There isn't even any coffee!)

Add to that MAX ride that I was just in DC, taking the Metro every day, and, OK, apples to oranges, yes, but FFS you feel like you're getting something for your money when you ride that thing.

(Someone on the portland reddit recently asked why PDX drivers drive so slow and many of the answers related to our notorious level of weed usage - maybe TriMet, in designing these lines figures no one will care how fast they get around, since most of the city is stoned anyway?)

Subway or no, what Portland really ought to do is address the sections that are overly curvy - near Sunset TC, around Union Station, the red line past Gateway and eventually downtown in some manner. If people had the feeling, whether right or wrong, that when they got on the MAX they were getting somewhere in a reasonable amount of time, it would surely go further toward accomplishing what we build MAX lines for in the first place.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by hat

A stop there would be fantastic. Closer to 28th or 33rd? Here's another silly little drawing. Having a ped bridge like 42nd would start tying the neighborhoods together again.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/101004589@N07/10364093846/

It needs to be at 28th. 28th is a major established pedestrian and bicycle corridor that connects NE & SE Portland, and has a large number of businesses and residential that lines it. It basically connects NE Broadway to SE Belmont, along with Sandy, Burnside, Glisan, and Stark.

Having a stop anywhere but at 28th would not be serving the city and the existing neighborhoods, and you would end up with only a fraction of the possible ridership - for the same amount of money. Which would be typical of MAX planning, "lets put the stations where nobody wants to go!"

Also, 28th is a future bicycle corridor, which will be "a huge piece of the bike network" in the future. You would want a MAX station to be on this to serve the greatest # of riders:

http://bikeportland.org/2013/10/11/p...-project-95240

[hat]

If PBOT decides to bike path 28th from Sandy to Stark (or thereabouts), I would be ecstatic. That has been a long time coming. I'm leaning toward 28th as well.

Problem is that there aren't as many bus transfers from there. Broadway and 32nd you have the 77, the 70, and then the 12 on Sandy all within two blocks. Move the stop to 28th and all you have is the 12.

[65MAX]

I think that a stop at either 28th or 32nd would be too close to Hollywood from an operations standpoint, and probably the reason it wasn't added in the first place. Remember, we want to speed up MAX service, not slow it down even more.

Having a streetcar on Broadway and/or Sandy would be a great catalyst for development around both 28th and 32nd/33rd. And both streetcar lines are in the Streetcar Plan which I expect to get a big push forward with Hales in the Mayor's office.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

I just took the MAX (Beaverton Central -> Goose Hollow) this morning for the first time in maybe 6 months and OMG what a clusterfuck it was. So many sections - not just where there are sharp curves - the train runs at about 10 mph for no discernable reason at all. Here's the thing: perceptions are important. When the train's going along 26 or 84 and cars are sailing by, you feel second class. I know, the MAX is supposed to be "the transit the middle class uses", and it's certainly nicer than the bus, but perception is that you're really wasting time. And if you're wasting time, maybe your time isn't all that important. In fact, maybe YOU'RE not all that important. Maybe during rush hour it's a different story. And I'm sure that past Beaverton you get less of that feeling, since you're not paralleling traffic and it's a straight shot anyway. But according to that blog post, LA's system has practically zero sharp curves and has heavy ridership partly due to that - because it's fast, or at least seems to be. (It doesn't help that I hadn't been to The Round in years and was surprised at what a barren wasteland it is. There isn't even any coffee!)

Add to that MAX ride that I was just in DC, taking the Metro every day, and, OK, apples to oranges, yes, but FFS you feel like you're getting something for your money when you ride that thing.

(Someone on the portland reddit recently asked why PDX drivers drive so slow and many of the answers related to our notorious level of weed usage - maybe TriMet, in designing these lines figures no one will care how fast they get around, since most of the city is stoned anyway?)

Subway or no, what Portland really ought to do is address the sections that are overly curvy - near Sunset TC, around Union Station, the red line past Gateway and eventually downtown in some manner. If people had the feeling, whether right or wrong, that when they got on the MAX they were getting somewhere in a reasonable amount of time, it would surely go further toward accomplishing what we build MAX lines for in the first place.

You should try riding the MAX during rush hour on 26, I remember watching the MAX fly past the cars that were sitting still in traffic.

The speed limits are designated along the lines, the drivers simply follow the signs of how fast they are allowed to go.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

The speed limits are designated along the lines, the drivers simply follow the signs of how fast they are allowed to go.

Sure, but those speed limits are set the way they are because of the engineering and design decisions made when the thing was built; I'm not blaming the drivers.

[maccoinnich]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

You should try riding the MAX during rush hour on 26, I remember watching the MAX fly past the cars that were sitting still in traffic.

The speed limits are designated along the lines, the drivers simply follow the signs of how fast they are allowed to go.

Are you really trying to make the case that the MAX is faster than driving?

Look: I love the MAX. I think Portland deserves credit where credit is due. But the fact that our rapid transit system is so slow is a major failure. The number of times I've heard people who work at Nike or Intel, and live in Portland, say that they'd love to take public transport, but it would be an hour or two extra out of their day. And who can blame them? I'm glad my job is in the central city - I would probably make the same decision.

What's more, TriMet/City of Portland/Metro don't even seem to see this as a problem. What on earth were they thinking when they opened the SW College stop? It's only 3 blocks away from the stop at SW Mill, and 3 blocks away from the future station on SW Lincoln. That there is a totally unnecessary 2 minute delay to someone's journey to work, which serves no other purpose I can think of.

[Eco_jt]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

The number of times I've heard people who work at Nike or Intel, and live in Portland, say that they'd love to take public transport, but it would be an hour or two extra out of their day. And who can blame them?

I am one of these people.

I have a studio in the Pearl District, but I have to drive to work to make it in a reasonable amount of time. I've taken the max out to Intel before but it just takes way too long (door to door) by light rail ~ 1 or more hours due to needing extra time to get to the correct stop and then needing a shuttle service from the Hillsboro station into Intel. In contrast to a 20-30 minute drive in the early morning before traffic hour sets in.

I would love it if the service was a bit faster, but who am I kidding, that will never happen.

On A Side Note: I have been living in the Netherlands for the past two years in Eindhoven (for a work assignment). I've gotten very used to riding my bike to work and back every single day (8km each way rain or shine). When I come back to PDX in January, I can't imagine not being able to ride my bike to work.

If there was a safe way to get from the central city to Washington County by bike (even though it would obviously take me an hour or more) I would choose to go by bike and get one of those fancy electric assist bikes for getting over the hill. I suppose I could still do this, but the thought of riding my bike on the side of Burnside through to Beaverton/Hillsboro ... is to me the equivalent of trying to ride on the side of the highway.

I guess the point being, more options would be nicer, and a more efficient system would certainly benefit a myriad of other peoples personal situations / options for commuting to work.

[WestCoast]

agree on transit speed, it's a real deal killer for many of us who then drive instead.

Obviously, I don't expect us to have amazing transit as we are a small city, but I always get confused when I go to even medium sized cities in Europe that have rapid transit.

Two examples:
Airport MAX - I just don't bother anymore. I live downtown, it's a 12 min walk to red line, plus add 5 minutes safety. Then 33 minutes to airport. So basically 50 minutes with adequate buffer. The train just crawls through the first 10 stops before going fast.

Now, I take the Radio Cab airport special. Usually 15 minutes door to door.



Work - I live maybe 3 blocks from the max yellow line. This runs to maybe 2 blocks from my office in North Portland. Literally, it's right there.

If I take Max, it's about 33 minutes all told. Maybe more if things get slowed down downtown.

If I drive, it's 8-9min. Hell, I have walked it once and it wasn't much more than 45 minutes.


Sooooo, I love the city, love the idea, but until it's about 2x as fast, I just can't be bothered to waste an hour a day to reduce one car trip.

[zilfondel]

Look, what transit system in the world is faster than driving? Even in London the LU runs ~10 mph on many sections in the central city.

With a car, you can drive practically door-to-door.
Transit requires walking on both ends, non-express stops between your start point and destinations.

If there is a freeway that connects you and your destination, then transit will almost always be slower - unless there is enough traffic congestion to slow driving down enough.

However, in cities like Vancouver, they have grade-separated high-capacity transit lines (skytrain) that run along corridors that either 1) do not have any freeways running along them or 2) do not have any roads that parallel the same route.

Portland has a fair number of urban highways, freeways, expressways and major arterials that make it difficult for transit to compete. Its basic geometry - only the west hills and the WIllamette River create bottlenecks that create congestion and make the MAX more time-competitive. Grade-separating our rail system and increasing the average speed will only make it more attractive to riders.

One of the reasons that a MAX line from Tigard -> Portland will be so effective is that the I-5 corridor can be completely saturated during rush hour. I used to work in Tigard, and driving to downtown often took ~1 hour. The bus could be faster when travelling along the same route.

Jarrett Walker @human transit has a lot of information and examples that discuss these "principles of geometry."

Additionally, if the stops were more conveniently located, then you won't have as far to walk to the station. Downtown MAX stops are very convenient for walking, but putting stops along, for instance, highway 99 instead of downtown Sellwood will only hurt ridership. Interestingly, people usually forget to factor into walking and parking times in their driving, and under-estimate how long driving takes. Ie, the people who claim its "only a 2-hour drive to Seattle" but then over-estimate transit times based on a worst-case scenario. But that is an entirely different conversation...

Anyway, I think the reason that most people take transit in this town is most likely based on economics: if you work downtown, it can be cheaper to take transit than driving, especially if you have to pay for parking. If you can rely on transit enough to not own a car, it can also save you a ton of money.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Additionally, if the stops were more conveniently located, then you won't have as far to walk to the station. Downtown MAX stops are very convenient for walking, but putting stops along, for instance, highway 99 instead of downtown Sellwood will only hurt ridership.

I couldn't agree more. Look at the way they designed stops along 205. I understand that the stops along 84 - with elevators - require more maintenance, so they tried to design around that on 205. But now, instead of going up the stairs and being immediately at street level, you have to walk along this path, that, in the case of Powell, is a good 300 feet. I know, boo-hoo, right? But still, it's irritating and time consuming. When I look at the design for the Tacoma station and think about how people will access it from Sellwood, I just roll my eyes. The funny thing is that an argument I've heard, from TriMet or Metro I don't remember, is that the "advantage" of having LRT at street level downtown is that you get out of the train and you're, well, right there. No going up or down escalators. I guess that argument doesn't apply in areas that are already less pedestrian-friendly?

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by Eco_jt

I am one of these people.

I have a studio in the Pearl District, but I have to drive to work to make it in a reasonable amount of time. I've taken the max out to Intel before but it just takes way too long (door to door) by light rail ~ 1 or more hours due to needing extra time to get to the correct stop and then needing a shuttle service from the Hillsboro station into Intel. In contrast to a 20-30 minute drive in the early morning before traffic hour sets in.

I would love it if the service was a bit faster, but who am I kidding, that will never happen.

On A Side Note: I have been living in the Netherlands for the past two years in Eindhoven (for a work assignment). I've gotten very used to riding my bike to work and back every single day (8km each way rain or shine). When I come back to PDX in January, I can't imagine not being able to ride my bike to work.

If there was a safe way to get from the central city to Washington County by bike (even though it would obviously take me an hour or more) I would choose to go by bike and get one of those fancy electric assist bikes for getting over the hill. I suppose I could still do this, but the thought of riding my bike on the side of Burnside through to Beaverton/Hillsboro ... is to me the equivalent of trying to ride on the side of the highway.

I guess the point being, more options would be nicer, and a more efficient system would certainly benefit a myriad of other peoples personal situations / options for commuting to work.

This issue has more to do with you not living near a light rail stop, and then combine it with a light rail station not being at your employment, thus needing more added time to commute. Then top that off that you are driving a reverse commute and typically going the opposite direction of traffic.

The MAX is better at getting people into the city for work commutes than the opposite. The reason why is in the suburban areas more people drive to the station to take it downtown and then are able to walk to work. The reverse you have to rely on shuttle services along with walking time which adds to a commute.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by WestCoast

agree on transit speed, it's a real deal killer for many of us who then drive instead.

Obviously, I don't expect us to have amazing transit as we are a small city, but I always get confused when I go to even medium sized cities in Europe that have rapid transit.

Two examples:
Airport MAX - I just don't bother anymore. I live downtown, it's a 12 min walk to red line, plus add 5 minutes safety. Then 33 minutes to airport. So basically 50 minutes with adequate buffer. The train just crawls through the first 10 stops before going fast.

Now, I take the Radio Cab airport special. Usually 15 minutes door to door.



Work - I live maybe 3 blocks from the max yellow line. This runs to maybe 2 blocks from my office in North Portland. Literally, it's right there.

If I take Max, it's about 33 minutes all told. Maybe more if things get slowed down downtown.

If I drive, it's 8-9min. Hell, I have walked it once and it wasn't much more than 45 minutes.


Sooooo, I love the city, love the idea, but until it's about 2x as fast, I just can't be bothered to waste an hour a day to reduce one car trip.

If there were to ever be an express line, I would hope it would be the Red Line to be the first to get it.

Though to counter your statement, that cab costs about $35-45 once you consider fare and tip, the MAX line costs $2.50. That is a huge difference.

Also, another thing to remember, for every person that commutes by the MAX that is another car off the road for that commute making commuting by car even easier. If everyone in Portland commuted by car to get to work, traffic would be much worse.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

This issue has more to do with you not living near a light rail stop, and then combine it with a light rail station not being at your employment, thus needing more added time to commute. Then top that off that you are driving a reverse commute and typically going the opposite direction of traffic.

The MAX is better at getting people into the city for work commutes than the opposite. The reason why is in the suburban areas more people drive to the station to take it downtown and then are able to walk to work. The reverse you have to rely on shuttle services along with walking time which adds to a commute.

2 responses:

1) What % of the city residences falls within the walk-shed (1/4 or 1/2 mile radius) of a MAX stop? It can't be that much.

2) The central city does not include the largest employers in the metro area, Intel, Nike, and OHSU. None of those are serviced by the MAX, although OHSU will be indirectly linked via the tram when the Orange line opens in SoWa.


While I would like to live in a downtown-centric city, Portland is not one. Our transit service needs to take this into account. At least the planning documents from Metro illustrate this with their neighborhood/regional town center designations, even if they do not reflect reality (ie, look at "downtown Tigard").

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

2 responses:

1) What % of the city residences falls within the walk-shed (1/4 or 1/2 mile radius) of a MAX stop? It can't be that much.

2) The central city does not include the largest employers in the metro area, Intel, Nike, and OHSU. None of those are serviced by the MAX, although OHSU will be indirectly linked via the tram when the Orange line opens in SoWa.


While I would like to live in a downtown-centric city, Portland is not one. Our transit service needs to take this into account. At least the planning documents from Metro illustrate this with their neighborhood/regional town center designations, even if they do not reflect reality (ie, look at "downtown Tigard").

I do agree that it was sort of a missed opportunity not running the MAX to Intel and Nike. It would have made more sense to get both of them involved in this, but based on ridership numbers, the system is doing really good.