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  #41  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 7:13 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Stay Stoked Brah View Post
The gulf coast has gulf coast cities, Houston is one of those gulf coast cities, it has a one of the largest seaports in the world. Houston is coastal by every sense of the definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Houston
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States
But most Americans know that "coastal cities" is shorthand for liberal leaning big cities on the northeast Atlantic Coast or Pacific Coast.
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  #42  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 7:15 PM
Stay Stoked Brah Stay Stoked Brah is offline
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Didn't we have this exact same thread a few weeks ago?

Anyway,
flight to the burbs, yes.
flight to the heartland, no.
flight to the burbs, yes
flight to the interior, yes
interior ≠ heartland

heartland was first used by a geographer from England referring to Eurasia.
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  #43  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 7:17 PM
Stay Stoked Brah Stay Stoked Brah is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
But most Americans know that "coastal cities" is shorthand for liberal leaning big cities on the northeast Atlantic Coast or Pacific Coast.
that's your definition from New York. ask somebody in Lake Charles where the coast is and they're not going to point towards the Hamptons.
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  #44  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 7:46 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Stay Stoked Brah View Post
that's your definition from New York. ask somebody in Lake Charles where the coast is and they're not going to point towards the Hamptons.
That's everybody's definition of it. People in New York know that Houston is technically on a coast, but that's not what the informal term "coastal cities" means. Please keep in mind that you're explaining it to a person who is not American, and for whom English is not his first language. There is no need to confuse the term by being pedantic, because you know exactly what we're all talking about.
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  #45  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
IMO, it seems like after the year 2000 the distinction between Great Lakes cities and northeast cities is growing wider. Back in the 90s "northern cities" was a common catchall to refer to the northeast corridor cities and Great Lakes cities, which were all part of the Manufacturing Belt. As northeast coast cities recovered more quickly from urban decay, it seems like a distinction has taken root.
That might've been more of a michigan/ohio/upstate NY thing.

I've lived in chicagoland for all 44 of my years, and this town has always seen itself as something distinct and separate from the "east coast", "northeast corridor", "Bos-Wash", whatever you wanna call it.

It's probably because chicago has always seen itself as the de facto capital city of the interior of the nation, the stacker of wheat, the player with railroads, the tall bold slugger, and all of that Sandburg stuff.
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  #46  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 8:23 PM
Stay Stoked Brah Stay Stoked Brah is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
That's everybody's definition of it. People in New York know that Houston is technically on a coast, but that's not what the informal term "coastal cities" means. Please keep in mind that you're explaining it to a person who is not American, and for whom English is not his first language. There is no need to confuse the term by being pedantic, because you know exactly what we're all talking about.
huh?! you're the one that is mucking up mousquet's question. he didn't ask anything about what people in "liberal leaning big cities on the northeast Atlantic Coast or Pacific Coast" think. that was you.
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  #47  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 8:27 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Stay Stoked Brah View Post
huh?! you're the one that is mucking up mousquet's question. he didn't ask anything about what people in "liberal leaning big cities on the northeast Atlantic Coast or Pacific Coast" think. that was you.
He was literally trying to understand the colloquial context of coastal cities:

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Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
By the way, would you call Midwestern cities like Milwaukee, Chicago or even Detroit more or less located right on the shores of the Great Lakes non coastal? These are oddities, but then the Great Lakes geographical configuration itself is odd, probably unique on Earth like some inland fresh water sea.
Chicago is just as much a literal coastal city as Houston. Neither are included in the colloquial understanding of "big coastal cities".
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  #48  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
But most Americans know that "coastal cities" is shorthand for liberal leaning big cities on the northeast Atlantic Coast or Pacific Coast.
No.

Coastal cities exist on The Gulf like Corpus Christi, Houston, Baton Rouge (AMSL), Mobile, Pensacola, Tampa, etc... Millions of people live around these cities. Houston, New Orleans, and Tampa are some larger metros and if you combine the Mississippi, Alabama, and Pensacola Gulf Coastal areas you have a region with over 1.5 million. These metros are simply different, but they are still undeniably coastal.
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  #49  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 8:40 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by SpawnOfVulcan View Post
No.

Coastal cities exist on The Gulf like Corpus Christi, Houston, Baton Rouge (AMSL), Mobile, Pensacola, Tampa, etc... Millions of people live around these cities. Houston, New Orleans, and Tampa are some larger metros and if you combine the Mississippi, Alabama, and Pensacola Gulf Coastal areas you have a region with over 1.5 million. These metros are simply different, but they are still undeniably coastal.
I guess some of us didn't know. If you didn't, when they talk about the big cities on the coasts, usually in a political context, they are not talking about Mobile, Alabama, lol.
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  #50  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 8:43 PM
Stay Stoked Brah Stay Stoked Brah is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I guess some of us didn't know. If you didn't, when they talk about the big cities on the coasts, usually in a political context, they are not talking about Mobile, Alabama, lol.
did anybody ask about which are the big cities (in a political context) are coastal?
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  #51  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 9:06 PM
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There is more demand for urban areas than supply, for the most part, so I expect that any lower prices in cities are a temporary feature (except for some extreme cases that were far out of equilibrium, like SF).
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  #52  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I guess some of us didn't know. If you didn't, when they talk about the big cities on the coasts, usually in a political context, they are not talking about Mobile, Alabama, lol.
And that tells you that the way these terms are used is just complete arbitrary nonsense.
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Last edited by The North One; Nov 7, 2020 at 11:35 PM.
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  #53  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 11:31 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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In my opinion, this is going to be an issue for some cities more than others.

New York and a few other cities like it will be unusually affected the most because it has as push factors a very high COL and a lifestyle that many Americans probably find inconvenient AND a lot of New Yorkers have jobs that could be done remotely AND a lot of New Yorkers who can work remotely are wealthy and can afford to move to a vacation-y type of place AND these kinds of people probably weren't originally from New York to begin with and have no roots keeping them local.

In contrast, people in a city like Omaha aren't under as much economic pressure and those who want a yard or space can get it, a lot of people in Omaha probably work in a warehouse or medical center or something and can't work remote, they don't have enough money to move somewhere that is better than where they are, and they probably have family and friends and a connection with the community that anchors them.

I do think this might affect cities like Dallas and Phoenix though. The era of corporate relocations to the sunbelt being an economic driver could come to an end if a company's formal brick-and-mortar headquarters is only a few dozen people and the other 2,000 employees either work from home or work in a hybrid setting out of regional offices elsewhere. However this might be balanced out by people choosing these cities as cheaper alternatives to places on the coasts. On the other hand, unless these cities sell themselves as being actually cool in ways beyond just money matters(looking at you, Plano) then what would stop people from bypassing such places and going to a more cool destination?

Something that may happen is a reduction in regional brain drain, too. Young people who would have previously needed to move to find a good paying white collar job doing something like finance or software development will find it more convenient and affordable to remain somewhere near their home town or the place they went to college, assuming said place is decently liveable and not too boring. I think recent grads will always want to work in an office for their entry level job, but then it was never an issue finding that kind of thing locally. It's the moving up part that they won't have to move for any longer.

Ultimately I think what will keep cities alive, and what will keep everyone from just dispersing to random places, is that the majority of people still can't work 100% remote and a lot of people have attachments to a place that range from family and friends to their personal budget. Not to mention access to services that can't be obtained entirely online, everything from restaurants to dentistry.

I do fear a real estate boom in places that are scenic and high in recreational amenity being a threat to both the natural environment and also the inclusiveness of these places as they exist. What I mean is, imagine a beach or a state park that's currently not well known and sort of far from anywhere, currently the nature element is untouched and also regular working class people can go on a weekend, put $5 in a box and their family can enjoy the beach or camp. What's going to happen is that real estate developers are going to buy up nearby land and subdivide it to sell houses to rich people who are now untethered from their urban jobs. These people will take over local government, and before you know it public access points to the beach will be sold off and closed, hiking trails will become residents-only amenities, etc, and also these wide open landscapes and unique rural cultures are going to be just totally bulldozed for lame mcmansion shit on 10 acres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stay Stoked Brah View Post
The gulf coast has gulf coast cities, Houston is one of those gulf coast cities, it has a one of the largest seaports in the world. Houston is coastal by every sense of the definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Houston
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

Now, if we want to be anal-retentive...

Houston itself is not directly on the coasts, its tens of miles inland but located on an estuary and bay deep enough for the largest ocean-going cargo ships to travel up and visit. Within the Houston metro area there are suburbs and satellite cities that are directly on the coast and have beaches.

Geographically, it's similar in that respect to London. It's about the same distance from downtown to the bay as London is to the wider part of the Thames Estuary, and if you wanted to go from London to a true coastal town like Brighton its about the same distance as from Houston to Galveston. Brighton is effectively in Greater London as it has commuter infrastructure and the only reason all of southern England isn't just a carpet of sprawl says something about the way the British handle urban planning vs. Americans.

Of course, hell, you would call Philly coastal but its also technically on a river and much further from any ocean fronting shoreline than Houston.

Last edited by llamaorama; Nov 7, 2020 at 11:52 PM.
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  #54  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2020, 12:14 AM
Crawford Crawford is online now
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
EMeanwhile I provided an article with real numbers while he didn’t.
So you want an article with "real numbers" and then I've "proved" something that cannot be proven either way at this point?

Well, home sales are surging in Brooklyn, during the pandemic. I guess this "proves" that people are fleeing sprawl for urbanity, because I found an article.

Home Sales Surge in Brooklyn
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/r...ate-sales.html

You realize there are no "numbers" that "prove" anything, right? There's no national database of real estate valuations. And if there were, there would be no way to ascertain what happened until post-pandemic, so we're all making our best guesses. And even then, there would be correlation-causation issues (did something happen because Covid, or economic crash, or tax changes, or lack of immigration, or whatever).
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  #55  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2020, 3:29 AM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Nope.

It doesn't even make any sense. Can someone explain why a family who preferred urban living pre-Covid would prefer suburban or rural living post-Covid?

Tons of wealthy urbanites, especially in the NY area, have weekend homes. During the height of Covid, everyone went to their weekend homes, since you obviously wanted to be outdoors instead of stuck in an apartment. But since Labor Day, almost everyone has returned.

The whole "rural boom" has dissipated. In fact prices for weekend properties have dropped since September. People aren't gonna take their kids out of Ivy League factories to some random rural school, and say good bye to all their friends, colleagues and favorite haunts for some backwoods cabin. And, at least in the Northeast, the weekend homes are on well water/septic, usually have rougher climate, with frequently snowed-in roads. These aren't for full-time residency.

Even the Hamptons have very limited winter amenities, and really only one small private school of note. Only a handful of wealthy will live year-round in the Hamptons.
Crawford, most people don't have weekend homes.

Anyways, what I know FOR SURE when it comes to Covid is that it will have a real impact on cities.

If just 10% of officers go fully WFH model, you'll see massive impacts. How many people live in central Chicago, for example, not only for the city life but also to be a ten minute train ride from work? Or a 10 minute walk? Now their job is 100% online, they could move back to some small town in Kentucky and buy a nice house with their Chicago income. This is going to be a very attractive option to many.

If my school were to announce they would remain online for the next year, me and my girlfriend would have 100% moved. With the money we have here, we could be extremely comfortable in most places not on the East or West coasts. It's going to be an extremely tempting option for many. The being able to walk to a lot of places isn't gonna keep everyone in place.

And thats the point. Articles like these usually paint things in black and white. CITIES ARE EMPTYING!!!! But it doesn't have to be a majority of people, if only a small percentage of people make the move from cities, it will have ripple impacts that will have huge effects on cities for years to come.
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  #56  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2020, 2:32 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
So you want an article with "real numbers" and then I've "proved" something that cannot be proven either way at this point?

Well, home sales are surging in Brooklyn, during the pandemic. I guess this "proves" that people are fleeing sprawl for urbanity, because I found an article.

Home Sales Surge in Brooklyn
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/r...ate-sales.html

You realize there are no "numbers" that "prove" anything, right? There's no national database of real estate valuations. And if there were, there would be no way to ascertain what happened until post-pandemic, so we're all making our best guesses. And even then, there would be correlation-causation issues (did something happen because Covid, or economic crash, or tax changes, or lack of immigration, or whatever).
This doesn’t disprove my point

The premise isn’t that everybody in New York is fleeing to Kansas City or anything. That’s obviously ridiculous.

However, some people from more costly coastal locales probably are moving to interior cities since they can work remotely and get more house for the buck. And perhaps elite amenities like top restaurants and museums don’t really matter much to them. And heck, even if it mattered you can’t even enjoy fine dining at a restaurant these days so the value proposition of Manhattan living has dropped considerably.

More relevant to your article, though, is that Brooklyn is probably going to benefit at Manhattan’s expense as a sort of “suburb”.

I’m pretty sure that pre-pandemic, any gains in the outer boroughs weren’t happening at Manhattan’s expense. Now we may be seeing that, and that’s definitely new.
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  #57  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2020, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Crawford, most people don't have weekend homes.
At least in the NY area, a very high % of upper income urbanites have weekend homes. I'd say most of our friends have weekend homes (or at least access to weekend homes via parents or relatives), and they aren't all HNWI.

Even pre-Covid, if you visited a wealthy Manhattan neighborhood on a summer weekend, it would be a virtual ghost town, except for tourists/visitors. This is because upper class families generally have homes elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
If just 10% of officers go fully WFH model, you'll see massive impacts. How many people live in central Chicago, for example, not only for the city life but also to be a ten minute train ride from work? Or a 10 minute walk? Now their job is 100% online, they could move back to some small town in Kentucky and buy a nice house with their Chicago income. This is going to be a very attractive option to many.
No. People live in core Chicago because they like urban living. No one is living in downtown Chicago and secretly pining for rural KY. It's an absurd premise.

Even pre-Covid, there was huge reverse commuting into Chicagoland suburbs, because many younger people really prefer cities, enduring horrible commutes. There were many people working remotely from city centers (I have a friend working 100% remote for American Express since the early 2000's and living in Lower Manhattan; he could technically live anywhere).

My sister was a dentist living in downtown Chicago for many years. She commuted to Bourbonnais, which is a rural town south of Chicago. It was an absolute hell commute, especially in the winter, but she did it because she wanted city life. She could have made more money outside of major metro areas, due to a shortage of dentists. She could have had no commute if she moved to rural Illinois. But those were never considerations, because she valued urban living.

I don't know a single person who lives in an expensive urban core because of a job. It doesn't make any sense, because all the urban cores have cheaper suburban areas nearby, so if you dislike urban living, there are already much better nearby options. No one has to live in a city center. You can already commute to Chicago's West Loop faster from Oak Park or Evanston or than from many core neighborhoods (due to Metra).
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  #58  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2020, 2:52 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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^ You provide anecdotes (my rich friends do this and that). Meanwhile in the real world, people are doing exactly what you’re saying they won’t do. The stats prove it.

And again, I’m not saying that most Chicagoans and New Yorkers are moving to Kansas. But if they move out of the city to nearby towns—even just 10% of them—it devastates the local real estate market and has a harmful cascading effect.
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  #59  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2020, 2:54 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
^ You provide anecdotes (my rich friends do this and that). Meanwhile in the real world, people are doing exactly what you’re saying they won’t do. The stats prove it.
Again, show us the stats that "prove" that people previously living in core Chicago now wish to live in a cornfield. And "prove" that Covid caused this.

You can't; it's all speculation.

And my sister is hardly rich. She took less pay to live in downtown Chicago. There's a tremendous rural shortage of dentists.
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  #60  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2020, 2:56 PM
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north-central illinois is more stereotypically “kansas” in a geographical
sense than much of kansas, lol.
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