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  #1  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 6:36 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Municipal election reform

Jim Watson just made marking my 2018 ballot a lot easier, assuming he runs: he won't be getting my vote.



Jim Watson digs in against ranked ballots, donation ban

Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson has reaffirmed his opposition to both ranked-ballot voting and banning corporate and union campaign donations, changes proposed by the Ontario government on Monday as part of an overhaul of the Municipal Elections Act.

Speaking to reporters following a meeting of the city's finance and economic development committee on Tuesday, Watson dismissed the idea of ranked ballots, which allow electors to choose their first, second and third choices.

"When I go into the ballot box I vote for my first choice, and I want my first choice to win, not my second or third choice," said Watson.

"I don't believe the vast majority of people, when they go into a balloting station, want to go and water down their vote by voting for their second or third choice on the ballot."

...
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  #2  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 7:32 PM
zzptichka zzptichka is offline
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Watering down? Does he understand how it works?
If anything, it gives more power to one's vote which is the opposite of watering down.
Oh, and you can always cast just 1 vote, without "watering it down", if you are too dumb to understand the concept.
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  #3  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 8:35 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
Watering down? Does he understand how it works?
If anything, it gives more power to one's vote which is the opposite of watering down.
Oh, and you can always cast just 1 vote, without "watering it down", if you are too dumb to understand the concept.
He either doesn't, or, more likely, is being disingenuous.

Preferential ballots are how every political party he's ever belonged to selects their local candidates or their party leaders, when the number of candidates is larger than two.

My stomach has been turning against Watson for a long time, but this is the absolute final straw.
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  #4  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2016, 8:38 PM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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He knows exactly what he's doing.

This will invite more candidates for mayor. It will make campaigning more expensive and more difficult. It will encourage a more centrist or common denominator outcome. The person least unpalatable to all. Rather than the one who demonstrates the most leadership.

As long as party politics stays out of our municipal elections I'm okay with this change.
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  #5  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 11:55 AM
cycleguy2000 cycleguy2000 is offline
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Combined with his obstinate and uniformed opinion about a safe injection site in Ottawa, I definitely will not be voting for Watson again.
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  #6  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 2:44 PM
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Jim has a good point when he says that, when it comes to municipal elections, people don't really know all the candidates. Usually you have one, two, maybe three credible people, and all of them may have very different ideas that may or may not match your personal vision for the city. Then you have a whole bunch of people who, although have good intentions, aren't necessarily credible (or in some cases nut-cases). So ranked ballots aren't a great solution for municipal elections.

Case and point: just look at the last election. My first choice was Watson, and then... no one. McGuire was the second most credible candidate but had very little vision. I had no second choice.

On the other hand, federally and provincially, we have the party system. We all know what the Liberals, NDP, Green and Conservatives stand for. All candidates are the same save for a few local issues. If you vote Liberal, chances are your number 2 choice is NDP, then maybe Green, Conservative... So ranked ballot could work well on those levels.

Now in Québec, many municipalities have party systems, though I don't agree with this. At the municipal level, everyone should be independent otherwise, nothing will get done unless you have a majority (see Gatineau). One the Fed and Prov level, you have the added incentive of confidence votes, so the parties need to compromise.
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  #7  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 3:42 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Jim has a good point when he says that, when it comes to municipal elections, people don't really know all the candidates.
Preferential voting gives the voter an incentive to learn more about everyone on the ballot, then. It also gives the candidates a strong incentive to introduce themselves to a wider swath of voters. A right-wing candidate now would focus on getting votes in a conservative suburban area; a left-wing candidate might concentrate on rental apartments. A preferential system, with more than two names in the race, forces them to broaden their coalition and appeal to people who already support another candidate as their ideal choice.

I can already foresee Candidate Mary's canvassers working a neighbourhood, ID'ing those households with Candidate Bob's signs on their lawns, making custom pitches to Bob supporters to put Mary as their second choice. This is a good thing.

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Usually you have one, two, maybe three credible people, and all of them may have very different ideas that may or may not match your personal vision for the city. Then you have a whole bunch of people who, although have good intentions, aren't necessarily credible (or in some cases nut-cases). So ranked ballots aren't a great solution for municipal elections.
If Jim Watson, or you, or Bob in Kanata, don't want to use up all the rankings available to you in a preferential ballot, then don't. Just be aware that, should your first and only choice drop off, that you have cast what they call in Australia an "informal" ballot, and you have voluntarily given up your votes beyond that first choice.

Hundreds of thousands (potentially a few millions) of Canadians have cast preferential ballots in the past few decades as federal and provincial parties have opened up their leadership and candidate nomination processes to a wider group. There have been 10s of thousands of votes cast in AB provincial party leaderships, about 25,000 in the NL Liberal leadership a couple years ago, 100,000ish in the federal Liberal leadership in 2013, a similar number to select delegates in the 2006 Liberal leadersip, 10s of thousands in the old PC and CA leaderships of the early 2000s and the post-merger leadership race that elected Harper, 10s of thousands in the NDP leadership that elected Mulcair, and hundreds, if not thousands, of federal and provincial electoral district candidate nominations. The concept of preferential balloting is not only NOT foreign or strange in Canada, it is very, very familiar.

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Case and point: just look at the last election. My first choice was Watson, and then... no one. McGuire was the second most credible candidate but had very little vision. I had no second choice.
So... don't cast a second- or subsequent-choice preference. Imaginary problem: solved.

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On the other hand, federally and provincially, we have the party system. We all know what the Liberals, NDP, Green and Conservatives stand for. All candidates are the same save for a few local issues. If you vote Liberal, chances are your number 2 choice is NDP, then maybe Green, Conservative... So ranked ballot could work well on those levels.
As they already do when those parties choose their leaders and nominate their local candidates.
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  #8  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 4:52 PM
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You can be sure that Jimbo is concerned about popular up-and-comers, like Tobi Nussbaum for example, taking a run at him in the next election, or the one after that, and like many a politician he's going to favour the process that allows him to keep his job the longest.
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  #9  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 5:41 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Nearly 60% in Toronto support ranked-ballot voting. I wonder what the comparable number would be in Ontario's second-largest metro?


http://www.torontosun.com/2016/04/06...n-toronto-poll
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  #10  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 5:43 PM
zzptichka zzptichka is offline
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
You can be sure that Jimbo is concerned about popular up-and-comers, like Tobi Nussbaum for example, taking a run at him in the next election, or the one after that, and like many a politician he's going to favour the process that allows him to keep his job the longest.
What if he splits urban votes with Nussbaum and someone like Maguire gets elected? Isn't it how we ended up with O'Brien?
Ranked ballots would eliminate this possibility.
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  #11  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
What if he splits urban votes with Nussbaum and someone like Maguire gets elected? Isn't it how we ended up with O'Brien?
Ranked ballots would eliminate this possibility.
O'Brien did pretty well on his own in 2006: 47% of the vote (or so says Wikipedia, at least: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa...on,_2006#Mayor). Using those numbers, you have to assume that a full 70% of Chiarelli's votes go to Munter to swing the result. That's not unreasonable, but it's not guaranteed either, considering that by definition, O'Brien already had support of some former-Chiarelli voters, and may have been the second choice of others who stuck with old Bob.
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  #12  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 9:29 PM
acottawa acottawa is online now
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Ranked ballots have some advantages and might prevent a situation like in Osgoode Ward where the winner had 21% of the vote.

I think people think it will prevent Rob Ford type candidates from getting elected, but Rob Ford had 47% of the vote, so it wouldn't have taken many 2nd or 3rd choices for a win (and since it stops at 3 under the proposed rules, 47% might still be enough for a win).

I suspect in the vast majority of municipal elections ranked ballots would have little effect at all.

I would rather see a runoff election, where there is a vote between the two top candidates a few weeks later. It lets voters make an actual choice rather than a theoretical choice.

Last edited by acottawa; Apr 6, 2016 at 9:29 PM. Reason: typo
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Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 10:36 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I would rather see a runoff election, where there is a vote between the two top candidates a few weeks later. It lets voters make an actual choice rather than a theoretical choice.
But adds to the cost of administering elections and campaigns, and would end up putting some candidates - those in the wards which have to be run off - at a financial and other disadvantage compared to those who got 50% on the first go-round... to say nothing of the additional burden on city-wide candidates.

I prefer an instant runoff/preferential/ranked system.
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  #14  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2016, 11:54 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Does ranked voting give some voters more say than those who only want to vote for one candidate? In most cases, I clearly have a preferred candidate and I don't want to vote for someone else. If it means that those who want to rank get effectively more votes, then I don't like the plan.
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  #15  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2016, 12:03 AM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Does ranked voting give some voters more say than those who only want to vote for one candidate? In most cases, I clearly have a preferred candidate and I don't want to vote for someone else. If it means that those who want to rank get effectively more votes, then I don't like the plan.
It becomes a throwaway vote. Like voting NDP last election, or Green or for the Engineer.
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  #16  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2016, 1:50 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Does ranked voting give some voters more say than those who only want to vote for one candidate? In most cases, I clearly have a preferred candidate and I don't want to vote for someone else. If it means that those who want to rank get effectively more votes, then I don't like the plan.
If they "get more votes" than you, it's because of your choice. But as long as your candidate remains on the ballot, your one-and-only preference continues to count. You don't lose your say unless and until your candidate drops off and you haven't indicated a preference beyond that point.
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  #17  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2016, 1:51 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Norman Bates View Post
It becomes a throwaway vote. Like voting NDP last election, or Green or for the Engineer.
Voting for someone who loses != "throwing away" your vote.
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  #18  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2016, 2:13 PM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Voting for someone who loses != "throwing away" your vote.
Voting for someone who doesn't stand a chance of winning - such as John Turmel (the engineer); a Green Party candidate except for maybe two or three; and sadly an NDP candidate in far too many places last election, is a throwaway vote.
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  #19  
Old Posted May 2, 2016, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Norman Bates View Post
Voting for someone who doesn't stand a chance of winning - such as John Turmel (the engineer); a Green Party candidate except for maybe two or three; and sadly an NDP candidate in far too many places last election, is a throwaway vote.
To me that is one of the big advantages of preferential voting. People can record their first choice (knowing full well that their choice will never win) and then express their preference between the two most likely candidates.

with a single vote system you never know how much support those secondary candidates really have. If a Green Party candidate got 5% does that mean their actual support was 7%, or 27%?
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Old Posted May 18, 2016, 6:49 PM
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http://globalnews.ca/news/2707933/on...l-politicians/

Quote:
Ontario to ban corporate, union donations to municipal politicians

By Staff The Canadian Press

TORONTO – The Ontario government plans to ban corporate and union donations to municipal politicians.

The Liberals are expected to propose amendments to the Municipal Act at committee today to prohibit companies and unions from donating to local politicians.

The government, which introduced legislation Tuesday to ban corporate and union donations at the provincial level, had said it would be up to municipal councils to decide whether or not to change their own fundraising rules.

But Municipal Affairs Minister Ted McMeekin has told The Canadian Press that the government has heard from a number of individuals and organizations across the province about the proposed Municipal Elections Modernization Act.

McMeekin says the province will ban corporate and union donations to council candidates and would-be school board trustees in all 445 Ontario municipalities.

He says the ban will create an even playing field for all political candidates.
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