Taxis and ridesharing in Ottawa

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

I thought the licenses were about $100,000 to *buy* outright. I don't believe this is an annual fee to the city.... someone correct me if I'm wrong.

No it is not an annual fee to the city.

The city only considers taxis legal of they hold a taxi plate, and it only issues a limited number of plates. I suppose the rationale for this is to limit the supply of taxis in order to allow each plate holder to earn a reasonable living.

However, the number of plates is artificially limited, but they can be resold (from an existing plate holder to a new would-be plate holder- the city is not involved with the resale of the plates). The value of the plates has increased with their scarcity.

If the city decided that it would eliminate the cap and give a taxi license to anyone who wants one, Uber would presumably be allowed, BUT the value of the existing plates would collapse overnight, and there would be lots of very angry taxi plate holders.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

If the city decided that it would eliminate the cap and give a taxi license to anyone who wants one, Uber would presumably be allowed, BUT the value of the existing plates would collapse overnight, and there would be lots of very angry taxi plate holders.

Anyone have any idea how many plates are individually owned? and how many are owned (and leased out) by Coventry Connections?

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Anyone have any idea how many plates are individually owned? and how many are owned (and leased out) by Coventry Connections?

I don't have any stats. It's a bit more complex than that. There is cab ownership, plate ownership, and dispatch service ownership.

Coventry Connections has a near monopoly on the dispatch services. Uber would basically compete there mostly but they would need plates and licenses to operate cars (if they are found to be a taxi...it sounds to me like the would like debate that in court) . The plates and licenses could work similarly to the way they work on the other cabs.


Any cab you get into falls into one of three categories

1) The guy driving bought the car, and bought the plate. He would need to pay Coventry a fee for dispatch services and the city a few fairly small licensing fees to cover inspections and stuff.

2) The guy driving bought the car and rents the plate from someone. That someone could be Coventry or could be a third party. There would be some small licensing fee as well as dispatch fees to Coventry

3) The guy driving rents the car and plate from someone. That someone could be Coventry, a third party, or another driver that falls into the first two groups. There would be licensing fees to the city and probably the owner of thing covers the rest.

So for example someone could buy a car and plate work all day and the rent the car and plate out to another driver to do the night shift and make more money off their rather large investment.

Coventry seems to at least on the surface encourage plate ownership by drivers - although the cost is rather steep, I gather they have financing and such. I have heard of drivers that own say 2 or 3 plates - driving one and renting the other out.


Basically both the car and driver need to be licensed and you need a dispatch service. Other than Coventry there is only Executive Cabs (which I think only have maybe like 25 cabs)

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

No it is not an annual fee to the city.

The city only considers taxis legal of they hold a taxi plate, and it only issues a limited number of plates. I suppose the rationale for this is to limit the supply of taxis in order to allow each plate holder to earn a reasonable living.

Why manage the supply of taxis, and not anything else municipally-licensed, like restaurants or retail establishments?

Open up the licensing, and the market will sort out the "reasonable living" issue on its own: anyone who can't make one, will exit the industry.

If the city decided that it would eliminate the cap and give a taxi license to anyone who wants one, Uber would presumably be allowed, BUT the value of the existing plates would collapse overnight, and there would be lots of very angry taxi plate holders.

In the immortal word of the Grumpy Cat: GOOD.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Why manage the supply of taxis, and not anything else municipally-licensed, like restaurants or retail establishments?

Open up the licensing, and the market will sort out the "reasonable living" issue on its own: anyone who can't make one, will exit the industry.

I agree with you, but the plate owners will freak out if the licensing is opened up because the plate that they paid $100K for would now be worth far, far less. There would doubtless be lawsuits.

I can even understand the plate owners perspective: they entered in good faith into the licensing regime that the city established; to have an asset you paid a significant amount of money for become instantly worthless would be difficult to swallow.

The sting might be eased if the city provided some kind of transition payment to existing plate owners, but I'm not sure how much this would cost. I'm sure it would be in the 10's of millions easily.

[c_speed3108]

The trick is to find a way to wind down our stupid system without causing economic collapse to people who invested five or six figures in it.


My gut is the best way to open supply up on a GRADUAL basis. Say 25-30 plates a year. Have an annual plate auction at city hall. 25 regular plates and 5 accessible ones.

This way there is an opening for a company like (or their drivers if they prefer that model) or any other new players to come in and obtain plates. They will still be worth a decent chunk of coin so the bottom won't fall out on the plate market. You could even restrict them to new players not dispatched by the other existing companies (which are mostly owned by coventry) - sorta like the feds did with the wireless spectrum with Bell, Rogers , telus etc.

The problem right now is the city has not old any new plates in years. The last batch was the accessible ones (which were initially free). Regular plates have been an awfully long time. Only the resale market.

[S-Man]

I thought the plates were worth much more - like $300,000. I could be wrong, but wasn't there a bunch of things passed a couple of years ago that favoured the taxi drivers and their union?

I might add that people aren't eager for an alternative to Ottawa cabs because of issues like cleanliness, promptness, or pleasant driver conversation - it's about money. It's about not being gouged while the driver slows down ahead of a green light in the hopes it turns amber and he can come to a tire-squealing stop just to drive up the meter. Or detours down the streets that will move slower and have more lights, all to get that extra buck out of you.

And it doesn't help that the taxi union tries to push its weight around to stop better transit access to the airport in order to protect their own financial interests. It also doesn't help that the city seems very, very close to the taxi company. Remember when Councillor Mark Taylor introduced a motion on behalf of them, to their benefit? This is a councillor who sits on the committee that oversees them, and has accepted campaign donations from them.

Yes, a councillor is allowed to accept donations from the cab company/taxi union, but the optics stink. If we're going to make a stink about councillors accepting donations from developers, this should be no different.

But never a peep out of people about this, after all, Watson (who used to employ Taylor) touts him at every turn. And anything Watson loves must be great!

Frankly, Ottawa l(and Ontario as a whole) looks more and more like the City of Laval each year.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by S-Man

I could be wrong, but wasn't there a bunch of things passed a couple of years ago that favoured the taxi drivers and their union?

I vaguely recall a couple of years ago that City Council had a "golden opportunity" to revamp the taxi licensing system... I don't recall the details, but the media was all over it as a positive way forward. But in the end council voted for the status-quo, and all I remember is the owner of Coventry Connections doing a big fist pump for the cameras. Couldn't help but wonder about campaign financing and all that... but that's pure speculation on my part.

On a more practical note... It just seems plain silly to me that $100,000+ (or whatever) * 1000+ cabs = $100,000,000 that is tied up in financing pieces of paper (and tiny bits of sheet metal)... when that money could be better spent directly on the industry itself. This could be in the form of newer cabs, lower fares, etc...

While I empathize with the stakeholders facing a capital loss.... seems to me like an industry shakeup is due.... now only if Uber did not request access to my phone pictures for their app... I might have jumped already

[Jim613]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

However, the number of plates is artificially limited, but they can be resold (from an existing plate holder to a new would-be plate holder- the city is not involved with the resale of the plates). The value of the plates has increased with their scarcity.

So if I bought a plate, would I be able to start a 1-man cab company (ex: Jim's Cab Co.), or would I be forced to join an existing cab company?

[eternallyme]

Keep Uber and shut down all the existing cab companies. That said, taxis are terrible in every city - I avoid them like the plague no matter where I am.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Jim613

So if I bought a plate, would I be able to start a 1-man cab company (ex: Jim's Cab Co.), or would I be forced to join an existing cab company?

Good question.

Technically I think you could be a 1-person cab company, but what number would people call if they want a cab? That is the dispatch service that Blue Line provides.

If you registered yourself with Uber and owned a plate, I don't think there would be any problem. In that case Uber would be providing your dispatching service.

EXCEPT: if you are a licensed plate owner, I think you are required to charge the city-approved taxi fare rates. Uber is lower than the city approved rates so I think you could face a fine for charging cheaper rates.

[khabibulin]

So what is the difference between UberX rideshare and kangaride/amigoexpress? Other than one is within a city and the other is long distance travel?

https://www.kangaride.com/

[umbria27]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

I don't have any stats. It's a bit more complex than that. There is cab ownership, plate ownership, and dispatch service ownership.

Coventry Connections has a near monopoly on the dispatch services. Uber would basically compete there mostly but they would need plates and licenses to operate cars (if they are found to be a taxi...it sounds to me like the would like debate that in court) . The plates and licenses could work similarly to the way they work on the other cabs.


Any cab you get into falls into one of three categories

1) The guy driving bought the car, and bought the plate. He would need to pay Coventry a fee for dispatch services and the city a few fairly small licensing fees to cover inspections and stuff.

2) The guy driving bought the car and rents the plate from someone. That someone could be Coventry or could be a third party. There would be some small licensing fee as well as dispatch fees to Coventry

3) The guy driving rents the car and plate from someone. That someone could be Coventry, a third party, or another driver that falls into the first two groups. There would be licensing fees to the city and probably the owner of thing covers the rest.

So for example someone could buy a car and plate work all day and the rent the car and plate out to another driver to do the night shift and make more money off their rather large investment.

Coventry seems to at least on the surface encourage plate ownership by drivers - although the cost is rather steep, I gather they have financing and such. I have heard of drivers that own say 2 or 3 plates - driving one and renting the other out.


Basically both the car and driver need to be licensed and you need a dispatch service. Other than Coventry there is only Executive Cabs (which I think only have maybe like 25 cabs)

Nice summary. Thanks.
The plate system seems to be the anachronism and the sticking point in this. It places an artificial limit on the number of cars.
Scrap the plate system and license the drivers. Drivers and dispatchers alike can compete in an open market.

I'd place a threshold on what makes you a cab driver requiring a license though. It has to be more than 2 rides a day. I should be able to offer a ride share back and forth to work without a taxi license.

[S-Man]

One of the things I don't like about this city council/mayor is that despite constantly patting themselves on the back for being progressive in one way or another, they fiercely reinforce the status quo in areas like this.

It's like the province and booze.

As the commenters on this forum have pointed out, it shouldn't have to come down to an argument of having a monopoly OR the wild west. Opportunities for healthy competition and possible savings/convenience for residents is possible, if only the city would slide the dowel rod out of its behind and become just the slightest bit flexible.

Fat chance.

[NOWINYOW]

[QUOTE=S-Man;6755115
As the commenters on this forum have pointed out, it shouldn't have to come down to an argument of having a monopoly OR the wild west. Opportunities for healthy competition and possible savings/convenience for residents is possible, if only the city would slide the dowel rod out of its behind and become just the slightest bit flexible.

Fat chance.[/QUOTE]

There's just something about a nanny-style Gov't that this city clings to. I don't blame the City or the Councillors. I blame the electorate for consistently voting in the same old, same old....

For example, Watson's platform for election is based solely on desire, not practicality. He's assuming the other levels of Gov't will support his dreams. If they don't, he'll blame those other levels of Gov't. He's not campaigning on plans, he's campaigning on desires and wishes. If the other levels of Gov't can't, or won't provide the financial support then all he has to say is "hey they won't play in my sandbox".

Anyway, great information about Uber and the complexities of the current state of taxis in Ottawa.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I agree with you, but the plate owners will freak out if the licensing is opened up because the plate that they paid $100K for would now be worth far, far less. There would doubtless be lawsuits.

Which they would lose.

I can even understand the plate owners perspective: they entered in good faith into the licensing regime that the city established; to have an asset you paid a significant amount of money for become instantly worthless would be difficult to swallow.

They entered the secondary market. The city is under no obligation to preserve that market, which only exists because of their own idiotic command-economy policies.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Good question.

Technically I think you could be a 1-person cab company, but what number would people call if they want a cab? That is the dispatch service that Blue Line provides.

If you registered yourself with Uber and owned a plate, I don't think there would be any problem. In that case Uber would be providing your dispatching service.

EXCEPT: if you are a licensed plate owner, I think you are required to charge the city-approved taxi fare rates. Uber is lower than the city approved rates so I think you could face a fine for charging cheaper rates.

In Washington DC, there are many independent cabs, but other regulations. They all have the same taxi sign, and as of the past year have begun standardizing on one paint scheme. They also get to choose a dispatching service if they want one, and Uber is one of their choices. In the app you can choose taxi, UberX or a number of options and see which one can get to you quickest. If you choose Taxi, the driver punches the final meter rate into the Uber app, it adds tip (you choose the default tip) and charges you accordingly.

This might be how Uber has to proceed in Ottawa. There have to be enough cabbies upset with Coventry to get a good start on things, an then they benefit from people using the app and having a choice of multiple options. The cabbies benefit from not having to worry about getting paid and they can still do curb pickups.

[rocketphish]

Baird tweets support for Uber in frustration with no-show cabs

Carys Mills, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: October 5, 2014, Last Updated: October 5, 2014 11:44 AM EDT

As Ottawa officials prepare to investigate whether Uber is breaking taxi regulations, Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird tweeted some support for the ride-sharing company on Saturday.

Uber, the app company that connects drivers with customers, was already in more than 200 other cities when it started up in Ottawa this past week.

Baird tweeted on Saturday night, suggesting he’s among Uber’s supporters in the capital, unlike Mayor Jim Watson.

John Baird ✔ @HonJohnBaird
Follow

75 minutes. 5 calls. No cab. Tonight I see the need for more competition with @Uber // @Uber_Ottawa #ottcity
11:46 PM - 4 Oct 2014

On Monday, the city is expected to start enforcing taxi rules against Uber and the drivers working with the company. Susan Jones, Ottawa’s general manager of emergency and protective services, has said the city may resort to undercover investigations and fines could be as high as $20,000.

Free promotional rides, up to 10 per customer and worth up to $20 each, are due to end on Sunday. Once rides are being provided for a fee, Jones said Uber should be complying with taxi rules, including having a broker’s licence, hiring licensed cab drivers and using vehicles licensed as taxis.

Company spokeswoman Lauren Altmin disputes this, saying Uber is a technology company.

“It’s unfortunate the city has chosen to ignore that reality and view the new ridesharing industry as a traditional taxi company,” she said in an email. “We welcome the opportunity to work with city officials to develop smart regulations that open up competition on the streets of Ottawa and give residents the transportation options they deserve.”

Even if Uber calls itself a technology company, Watson told reporters the company needs to follow taxi rules. “They’ve been told very clearly, they have to follow the rules and regulations,” Watson said hours after Uber launched.

cmills@ottawacitizen.com
twitter.com/CarysMills

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...h-no-show-cabs

[S-Man]

Did anyone see last week that Invest Ottawa tweeted a welcome to Uber, only to delete it a few hours later? David Reevely made mention of this.

I can only assume a stern phone call was placed from His Worship that sent them scrambling to erase the greeting.

[gjhall]

Got an email from Uber this afternoon that they'll be extending the free rides "indefinitely."

Game on.