Underground Malls / Subway / Discussion

[harls]

Hume Rogers, of the Downtown Coalition, says that with a tunnel taking light-rail commuter trains under the city's busiest streets, there will be thousands of riders who will be a ready market for underground shops and services. In Montreal and Toronto, subways led to new business districts underground and pedestrian pathways that allow people to stay out of the weather as they go from building to building.

After reading the Citizen Article (posted by waterloowarrior), what do you you think of downtown businesses getting hyped about an underground retail network (like Toronto's PATH system or Montreal's Underground City)? Is this a good idea? Will it kill off even more street life from downtown city streets? Will it actually make things more vibrant?

Thoughts?

[lrt's friend]

I think it will depend on how successful the subway is in drawing more people downtown. If it is very successful, then downtown will be more vibrant and there is room for an underground city.

If it is only modestly successful, an underground city will likely draw business away from surface streets.

I suspect that the further LRT reaches out into the suburbs, more people will feel confident to come downtown especially during off-peak hours. The biggest impediment to going downtown right now are parking problems, parking costs, and traffic congestion. If we make it easy to leave their car at home and come downtown quickly and hassle free, then more will do so.

[citizen j]

The key to the Toronto PATH's success as a part of the urban fabric is its integration with what's above it. In other words, how seamless and intuitive is the spatial relationship between the underground mall and the street grid? It fails as an urban experiment when/where that integration falls apart (meandering sections between King and Queen west of Bay Street come to mind, here). Unfortunately, most mall owners would rather you enter their particular segment of the underground network and then become disoriented/lost in order to prolong your stay and the likelihood that you'll buy something. So, a kind of straight-line underground path following the street grid above it isn't alwasy easy to come by. One way to achieve a decent degree of integration between the two is to have multi-level stores with entrances at both the street and subway level. That's not necessarily feasible for smaller retailers, but with enough of these larger multi-level "gateways" (Gap, Indigo, Nike, HMV, and Holt Renfrew are good examples along Bloor St.) supplementing the regular street entrances, street-level activity and subterranean activity can overlap nicely. It's sort of a verticallly applied solution to the kind of problem Ottawa currently has in a horizontal format with the Rideau Street facade of the Rideau Centre or the great, brown HBC behemoth on George. Permeability is key.

It's been years since I ventured down there, but Place de Ville once had vestiges of an underground retail concourse anchored by cinemas. I have to say that when the cinemas closed down, I had no reason to go there anymore. Is it still functioning? Or is it a bipolar retail ghost-town with a food court?

[Acajack]

I seem to recall some years ago hearing Montreal shopowners complaining that the underground city had really hurt their businesses, especially during the winter months. The main argument was that it doubled up retail space in basically the same areas with no corresponding increase in population or clients. Apparently this was one of the reasons for the many vacant storefronts in downtown Montreal in the years following the expansion of the underground city.

Of course, downtown Montreal is today thriving both above and below ground.

[MalcolmTucker]

Unless you have overburdened pedestrian infrastructure, don't do this.

The fastest way to kill street life is to build grade separated retail corridors. Of course a dry cleaners, convenience store and coffee shop might be good on a retail concourse at the stations, but a path system? no way.

Look at how Edmonton's pedway system has affected their downtown. Its good at keeping people out of the cold, but I don't think there would be any other substantial reasons to do it. Certainly not worth it if it would require substantial renovations. Likely wouldn't make money.

I am surprised a 'downtown' coalition would propose this. Calgary's downtown coalition is trying to get ours closed outside of business hours to improve street life.

[Kitchissippi]

I think there is a big difference between underground and elevated walkways. Something about elevated systems seems to kill street life more. Probably because the bridges cause shadows and destroy the aesthetic of the street. While some underground systems have gone bad, most are successful especially in older cities that have existing humane street structure. Where it has failed are places where buildings are new and streets have lost a history of pedestrian appeal.

[Ottawade]

Other than things like grabbing a coffee/magazine/newspaper on my way to work, I don't see this as being a very good idea for Ottawa. We need to revitalize and fill in some of our core streets before we start going underground. Unless we want to put all the schwarma and tattoo places down there, but that would get scary!

[lrt's friend]

Where it has failed are places where buildings are new and streets have lost a history of pedestrian appeal.

I hate to say it, but this sounds like most of downtown Ottawa outside of the Market area, so many modern buildings without street front retail. I chuckle when people suggest that Albert and Slater Streets will become vibrant pedestrian streets. They were never retail streets and the buildings are mostly not designed to accomodate it.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I hate to say it, but this sounds like most of downtown Ottawa outside of the Market area, so many modern buildings without street front retail. I chuckle when people suggest that Albert and Slater Streets will become vibrant pedestrian streets. They were never retail streets and the buildings are mostly not designed to accomodate it.

Exactly, what is needed is to close lanes on these streets, and bring back life there first. What I like about Toronto and Montréal, and I'm still saying it, it's that retail is both inside and outside the buildings, which improve life altogether.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

I am surprised a 'downtown' coalition would propose this. Calgary's downtown coalition is trying to get ours closed outside of business hours to improve street life.

That's really interesting. When I was in Calgary (mind you it was the middle of Stampede and summer) it seemed like no one was using the +15's but I can see how in winter they would just draw you out of the cold.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I think there is a big difference between underground and elevated walkways. Something about elevated systems seems to kill street life more. Probably because the bridges cause shadows and destroy the aesthetic of the street. While some underground systems have gone bad, most are successful especially in older cities that have existing humane street structure. Where it has failed are places where buildings are new and streets have lost a history of pedestrian appeal.

I agree with you and you might be right about the difference between above- and below-ground passageways. To go above ground requires extra time and effort, while you would go underground on your way to the subway so it's got a much greater chance to work as an instictive pass-through place for commerce.

I recently went to Montreal by train and walked the underground pathways from Bonaventure station. There's a whole section in there somewhere that has been remodelled as a type of food market, where the pathway is right in the middle of the same areas where people line up to get their food. There's enough space for it to work and enough chaos to make it appealing. You remember it, anyway. The co-mingling of people walking through and people stopping for a bite to eat makes it an interesting urban space.

I think as well that when there is a subway, the basement level of office towers become the appropriate place for food courts, whereas without a subway they end up on the ground floor à la Clarica Centre (or SunLife now). With food courts in the basement the ground level can be used for more monumental entrances and street-fronting retail.

Most if not all buildings along Albert and Slater, as they are today, do not add much to a pedestrian enviroment. They can, and should be, remodelled once the subway opens. By then, the value of those spaces will increase.

[Kitchissippi]

Bloor street in Toronto is an interesting case. Despite being at the hub of Toronto's transit system, I remember in the 80's it was really run down. There was upscale retail in Yorkville but Bloor itself was shabby and sterile like Albert or Slater. Today, all the most prestigious stores are there and the sidewalks are full of people. I think one of the reasons for this renaissance is the fact that the buildings between Bloor and Yorkville now provide a significant amount of interior space. The passageways through and under the buildings have made the area "porous" for pedestrians, allowing them to move from subway to street level and between blocks with relative ease. Pedestrian shoppers don't like walking back and forth the same route, which is why most indoor malls have moved away from dumbell designs to layouts that allow for more circular patterns (some add a floor above or below, creating a vertical circuit). That's basically the problem with Sparks Street Mall is that you walk down it once and you've seen it all, and the walk back becomes tedious.

[m0nkyman]

I hate what +15's and underground pedestrian malls do to cities, but acquiesce to their inevitability in our climate. What will happen will be the connection of all the existing interior malls that exist throughout the downtown, and that might help let people realize just how much retail is going on downtown off the streetfronts already. Place de Ville, World Exchange Plaza et al don't face the street now. Perhaps with more pedestrian movement between buildings it might make people explore a bit more during lunch breaks.... and the more people explore downtown the better.

[rodionx]

Downtown is where the people are after 6:00 p.m. In Ottawa, that's the Market, Elgin, and parts of Bank. I just don't see Sparks, Albert, and Slater ever fitting the bill, either above or below ground. The Central Business District is basically an office park. Hardly anyone lives there.

If there's a case to be made for an underground mall, its purpose should be to connect the city's major downtown zones. An underground mall from Rideau Centre to Elgin, incorporating a subway station at the government convention centre, would be a good bet. An outlet on Sparks street would allow people to use it as a corridor to Bank.

[m0nkyman]

The CBD isn't going to be the nightclub district, but it can definitely build up a nice lounge and restaurant scene based on a meal or a drink after work before going home for the 25-40 set.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by m0nkyman

The CBD isn't going to be the nightclub district, but it can definitely build up a nice lounge and restaurant scene based on a meal or a drink after work before going home for the 25-40 set.

Maybe. It certainly works that way in much larger cities, but Ottawa is still small enough that it often seems easier to go home after work and then go out later in the evening. Plus the Market, Elgin etc are just a couple of minutes away if you want to socialize after work. I am not sure the CBD will become much livelier unless or until more people are living there.

[eemy]

Realistically, as buildings around stations undergo renovations, adjacent buildings will incorporate their lower levels into the neighbouring station, which isn't necessarily a bad thing on its own. Over time, maybe the city would encourage more buildings to link up, but I think you'd be looking at least at a thirty year time frame for any significant system to develop, and by then, the city should be quite a bit larger.

Do you suppose that the city will use a POP system, or switch to a fair-paid zone system? If OCTranspo is implementing fare cards, they could implement a zone system - free downtown, say, between Lebreton and the Rideau Centre, Zone 1 within the Greenbelt, and (if extended) beyond the Greenbelt, Zone 2.

[Aylmer]

That was what I loved about Calgary's CBD: As dead as it was, the train was free!

I thought about having tolls to get into the city and having wi-fi info transmited whenever you cross into downtown (fuel efficiency, time spent there, ect.) and it just adds fees to your tax. The amount depends on where you live (relative to Downtown) and the fuel effeciency of your vehicle. MuchoMoulah, mucho influx to transit!

If we where to take money from the toll booths, you could fund construction of the LRT and incentivise people to take the toll-free transit!

[harls]

11 years later, what do you posters (the ones still around) think now?

*runs for cover*

[J.OT13]

The property owners in this town are vision-less. They hyped up the possibilities during the tunnel planning phase and then did nothing when it became reality. It reminds me somewhat of the current office crunch; everyone knows it's an issue, but no one is stepping up to solve it, because they don't want to hurt the current profit margin.

Other than Morguard (Hilton Complex and Heritage Place) and Bentall (Sun Life Centre), no other property owner has done any significant work on their buildings. Even Place de Ville, with its direct underground link to the subway, little work has been done. The link itself, a narrow maze behind the stairs and escalator, is terrible.

Claridge will be building over its entrance any day now, but they haven't included any direct connection. I understand the security concerns with residential (though DND has a climate controlled entrance to the Rideau Centre, accessed by key-card), but they could have connected a hotel lobby (which is still unclear if a hotel will be included).

I'm extremely disappointed.

As for the idea of an underground city, I could support it as long as growth is controlled. At first, pathways from the stations to Sparks and Albert would help in alleviating foot traffic on Queen. Imagine the thousands heading in and out of the station, crossing the street. Some will wait at the light, some will cross without priority, others will j-walk. It's bad enough today, I'm worried about what it will be after the train opens. Add to that thousands of STO buses looping around Lyon. It won't be pretty.

Outside major renovations to underground paths and buildings around Queen, here is what I would like to see:

1. Connect PdV to C.D. Howe within 2 years. Both are well established underground retail and food service areas, so it would not have much of a negative consequences to street life. It would also complete a vision from when C.D. Howe was first built;
2. Build a new entrance into the World Exchange Plaza within 5 years, with indoor elevators and double escalators. I don't believe the current vertical circulation at Parliament will suffice and I'm disappointed the only two elevators were built, and outside to boot. Possibly connect Sun Life with WEP, but that could be difficult with the parking ramp;
3. Build tunnels to connect the Convention Centre, old Union and the NAC within 5 years. The Château would be by default connected as well. As it stands, it is quite treacherous, especially for those with mobility issues, to get from Elgin to the Rideau Centre. This was another proposal that has come and gone many times over the years. An additional connection from the NAC across Elgin (Chambers Building, 90 Elgin, or Lord Elgin) could also be added.
4. Connect PdV to Constitution Square, with 10 years, and Minto, within 15 years. The three largest office complexes would then be linked.
5. Within 20 years, connect Minto with Jean Edmonds, which itself could connect to Standard Life I, II and eventually III years before.

Other connections could be made over time, but those are the main ones. The Rideau Centre complex could also expand with a new hotel and residential building along Nicholas, all connected together. Possibly single links though parking garages under George and York.