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  #1181  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
The cycling activists always see the private vehicle as the enemy (just like the overseers in Eastern Bloc countries did, because it offered the proletariat freedoms that threatened the control of those in power
Oh dear ... That all came to a close 30 years ago Keith, you shouldn’t worry about waiting 10 years for permission to buy a Lada or Skoda. I thought that all came down to the state of their economy and industrial capacity. If you want to restrict the movement of cars it’s relatively easy to setup checkpoints.

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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
To me, it makes far more sense to use the underutilized sidewalk infrastructure for the handful of entitled cyclists who demand separation from the vehicles on roadways.
I know many Chinese cities have banned bikes from roads and instead allowed them onto sidewalks. Victory you think? That’s until you realize their sidewalks are often the width of our 2 lane roads, so you’re giving street space anyway. Plus if you think bike lanes are crazy, they have jogger lanes! Ours wouldn’t need to be that wide, but you would still see our sidewalks expanded in some form. Some of our bike lanes, such as the one on lower water st. are basically an extension of the sidewalk and you still oppose it.
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Last edited by Good Baklava; Nov 23, 2020 at 2:58 PM.
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  #1182  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 1:37 AM
Dartguard Dartguard is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
There is certainly a large dose of arrogance but I think there is an even larger dose of willful ignorance. The cycling activists always see the private vehicle as the enemy (just like the overseers in Eastern Bloc countries did, because it offered the proletariat freedoms that threatened the control of those in power) and consistently fail to understand that people like having vehicles for far more reasons than just getting to and from work each day. They then attribute the popularity to shadowy lobbying and undue influence by the auto and oil industries, because Big Corporate has to be bad, right? It is just absurd. To me, it makes far more sense to use the underutilized sidewalk infrastructure for the handful of entitled cyclists who demand separation from the vehicles on roadways. And when those two modes conflict, it is a much fairer fight than the certain injury and death that results when a cyclist gets into an altercation with a dump truck.
Interesting observation on the Eastern Bloc countries. I was in Berlin the Weekend East Germany was absorbed and the ridiculous Treblant East German "peoples car" were roaming all over the newly opened up West Berlin. You are right Keith the newly freed East Germans used their cars as tourism trolleys to see how the other half lived. The West Germans were filling the cars with Wine and food stuffs. Crazy party like atmosphere. Not a bike in sight except for the Yamaha Motorbike on one side of the soon to be opened Yamaha store just across the Speer river. The other picture window displayed a Yamaha Grand Piano. I still have a piece of the broken windows of Checkpoint Charlie
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  #1183  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 5:29 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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This thread has been going since 2008 and surprisingly enough the discussion has remained the same.

Cyclists are happy that they may finally have safe routes to allow them ride through the city with less risk.

Anti-cyclists are contending that it's a waste of money and it will be the end of the car as we know it.

Meanwhile, cycling lanes have been added and people are still able to drive their cars trouble-free through the city. No apocalypse in sight.

Yet the discussion doesn't change...
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  #1184  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 10:11 PM
Citizen_Bane Citizen_Bane is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
This thread has been going since 2008 and surprisingly enough the discussion has remained the same.

Cyclists are happy that they may finally have safe routes to allow them ride through the city with less risk.

Anti-cyclists are contending that it's a waste of money and it will be the end of the car as we know it.

Meanwhile, cycling lanes have been added and people are still able to drive their cars trouble-free through the city. No apocalypse in sight.

Yet the discussion doesn't change...
ODM, may I ask why you would think that there are no pro-cyclists in HRM that contend that there is a better more beneficial use for taxpayer's dollars than under utilized bike lanes?
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  #1185  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 12:05 AM
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ODM, may I ask why you would think that there are no pro-cyclists in HRM that contend that there is a better more beneficial use for taxpayer's dollars than under utilized bike lanes?
I don’t think Mark should take the time to respond if people aren’t taking the time to reflect on his post. He never said all 100% of cyclists don’t see a better use of tax dollars. He was just implying cyclists in general benefited from improved safety.

I can always appreciate an attempt to find the middle ground in what is probably the most polarizing thread. However, the point becomes moot when revealed preferences say otherwise. Neither KeithP. or MonctonR. claim to be anti-cyclist, but they seldom speak to the benefit of those who cycle making it easy to distinguish platitudes from true intentions. Being pro cyclist can be very different from actively participating as one, or at least intending to.

“Under-utilized” bike lanes could mean a lot of things. That comment could mean all bike lanes are under-utilized, it could refer to the selected route not being ideal, or that finally that not enough bike lanes have been built to encourage their utilization.
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  #1186  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 2:33 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Citizen_Bane View Post
ODM, may I ask why you would think that there are no pro-cyclists in HRM that contend that there is a better more beneficial use for taxpayer's dollars than under utilized bike lanes?
CB, I never said that, nor do I think that.

My post was a commentary on this thread, where the repetitive arguments remind me of Groundhog Day, and the assertions that bike lanes would make it impossible to drive a car in Halifax have not come true.

Much ado about nothing, as usual. If bike lanes turn out to be not used, the ROW can always be returned to motor vehicle, or some other yet to be determined, usage.
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  #1187  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 12:04 PM
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This phenomenon is hardly unique to HRM. In many if not most North American cities the same arguments go on. NYC is a particularly extreme example although there one of the few actual productive uses of bicycles i.e. bicycle couriers sometimes actually use the network of lanes. However, as seems endemic to avid cyclists, they are notorious for ignoring all rules and placing themselves, motorists and particularly pedestrians at risk of harm in their rush to deliver their precious envelopes. Nonetheless just like here in HRM the city administration has desired to spread their impeding web onto more residential, largely low-traffic (comparatively, for NYC) streets in Manhattan and the wrath of residents no longer able to get around easily or receive deliveries via van is causing considerable pushback.
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  #1188  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 1:41 PM
Citizen_Bane Citizen_Bane is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
CB, I never said that, nor do I think that.

My post was a commentary on this thread, where the repetitive arguments remind me of Groundhog Day, and the assertions that bike lanes would make it impossible to drive a car in Halifax have not come true.

Much ado about nothing, as usual. If bike lanes turn out to be not used, the ROW can always be returned to motor vehicle, or some other yet to be determined, usage.
My apologies ODM. I should have said 'do you think' rather than 'why would you think'. I liked you post and thought it might be a first step towards kind and rational conversation on this subject.
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  #1189  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Meanwhile, cycling lanes have been added and people are still able to drive their cars trouble-free through the city. No apocalypse in sight.
You seem to not visit the peninsula and downtown very much these days.
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  #1190  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 5:16 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Citizen_Bane View Post
My apologies ODM. I should have said 'do you think' rather than 'why would you think'. I liked you post and thought it might be a first step towards kind and rational conversation on this subject.
No worries!

More often than not I'm guilty of wording posts such that they don't communicate the intended message very well! I appreciate your comments.
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  #1191  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 5:25 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
You seem to not visit the peninsula and downtown very much these days.
Why just yesterday I had to drive downtown during rush hour - no problems whatsoever. So there's that.

Honestly, if a person finds driving in Halifax to be so difficult that they have to be constantly complaining about it, it might be time to consider other methods of getting around. Driving in Halifax isn't that hard to do at any time, especially when you compare it to larger cities like Toronto and Montreal. Just focus on what you're doing, assess the situation, and anticipate what is about to happen so you can be proactive in your driving. It's really as simple as that.

Worst case scenario is that added bus lanes and bicycle lanes might add 10 minutes to your commute - so plan ahead, allow yourself extra time, and be thankful that it doesn't take you 2 hours to travel 10 km, like in a lot of larger cities. Also consider that the added bus service and cycling lanes have the potential to take some car traffic off the roads, thus cancelling out some of the reduced road capacity.

Really, none of this is all that bad.
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  #1192  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 9:38 PM
Summerville Summerville is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Why just yesterday I had to drive downtown during rush hour - no problems whatsoever. So there's that.

Honestly, if a person finds driving in Halifax to be so difficult that they have to be constantly complaining about it, it might be time to consider other methods of getting around. Driving in Halifax isn't that hard to do at any time, especially when you compare it to larger cities like Toronto and Montreal. Just focus on what you're doing, assess the situation, and anticipate what is about to happen so you can be proactive in your driving. It's really as simple as that.

Worst case scenario is that added bus lanes and bicycle lanes might add 10 minutes to your commute - so plan ahead, allow yourself extra time, and be thankful that it doesn't take you 2 hours to travel 10 km, like in a lot of larger cities. Also consider that the added bus service and cycling lanes have the potential to take some car traffic off the roads, thus cancelling out some of the reduced road capacity.

Really, none of this is all that bad.

I couldn't agree more.

I know that I come from the pro-cycling side. But I am also an automobile driver, I live on the peninsula and I have been working downtown for 15 years.

Traffic is not bad in the downtown area, considering the factors that I will mention below.

When we think about the real traffic, perhaps it may be better to pin point the actual chokepoints. They are likely those areas where motorists are trying to get on/off the peninsula. Downtown traffic is not the issue unless you are trying to get home from the Parade of Lights.

Factors that really affect downtown traffic are the narrow streets that result from Halifax's historic layout, trucks running between the container piers and buses. There are only bike lanes on Lower Water Street and Hollis Street.

In fact, I fail to see how bike lanes really influence traffic. But if you prefer to focus on bike lanes in order to miss the real problems,...we're all allowed to have our opinions.
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  #1193  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 12:41 PM
atbw atbw is offline
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Originally Posted by Summerville View Post

In fact, I fail to see how bike lanes really influence traffic. But if you prefer to focus on bike lanes in order to miss the real problems,...we're all allowed to have our opinions.
In the case of Hollis, Lower Water, the upgraded lane on Gottingen, these lanes have already existed and are just being upgraded. The lane on Hollis, for example, doesn't take up enough space to be repurposed into a traffic lane anyway. And what for! Outside of rush hours (where it's 2 lanes anyway, due to removal of parking) it's a pretty quiet street with a 'green wave' that provides great traffic flow.

I would earnestly enjoy it if we could ignore those who come to this thread in bad faith. I think there are debates to be had on how and where we put AT infrastructure, the type of infrastructure we use, and the money allocated to it.

But comments that devolve into claiming Halifax is a totalitarian hellscape with a council that is hated by the population are absurd and derail any hope of nuanced, thoughtful discussion.
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  #1194  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by atbw View Post
I would earnestly enjoy it if we could ignore those who come to this thread in bad faith. I think there are debates to be had on how and where we put AT infrastructure, the type of infrastructure we use, and the money allocated to it.

But comments that devolve into claiming Halifax is a totalitarian hellscape with a council that is hated by the population are absurd and derail any hope of nuanced, thoughtful discussion.
Just stop it. I can do without the passive-aggressive, veiled allegations, thankyouverymuch. The arguments put forward by the cycling activists are just as "absurd" as you would describe anti-bike lane positions, and most certainly lacking in nuance, given the entitled nature of their positions. Debates where only one side is allowed to prevail are hardly debates.
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